On this episode of #vted Reads, we’re joined by noted Native scholar Judy Dow, to talk about Hidden Roots<\/em>, by Joseph Bruchac<\/a>.<\/p>\n\nhttps:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/01\/Hidden-Roots-Judy-Dow.mp3<\/a><\/audio>\n

This book and the issues it raises are incredibly important for us to address as both educators and Vermonters, given Vermont’s appalling history with eugenics. So as a quick content note: we’re going to be discussing family- and race-based trauma. Because we have to, so that you can talk about it with your students, and find new and better ways to incorporate the vibrant history of Indigenous and Native people — as well as including their voices and perspectives through the current day.<\/p>\n

We got up early for this one, folks.<\/p>\n

This is #vted Reads. Let’s chat.<\/p>\n

Jeanie: <\/strong>I’m Jeanie Philips and welcome to #vted Reads. We are here to talk books for educators, by educators, and with educators. Today, I’m with Judy Dow and we\u2019ll be talking about Hidden Roots<\/em> by Joseph Bruchac.<\/p>\n

Thank you for joining me Judy. Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.<\/p>\n

Judy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you, it’s nice to be here. Well, I’m currently working for Gedakina<\/a>, a native organization that is throughout New England. And we have an educational component where we want to educate our students about culturally appropriate and historically accurate books.\u00a0 We want to educate other students that are not native about the same thing. Our hopes are this education will prevent bullying, or limit bullying, and a little bit more understanding between both cultural groups.<\/p>\n

Through Gedakina, I’m working in the Windham Southeast Supervisory Union. It’s a district in the southeast corner of the state. We\u2019re trying to develop a curriculum program that will match with H.3<\/a>, the new bill that addresses ethnic studies being taught in core curriculum.<\/p>\n

So the book I’m currently reading is one I read many, many times. It’s Hidden Roots<\/em> by Joe Bruchac<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Jeanie: <\/strong>Excellent. I cannot tell you how excited I am to have you on the podcast. We\u2019ve been friends since we took a trip together and you\u2019re just a wealth of knowledge. I’m just so excited for this conversation. Thank you so much for joining me today. I always like to ask my guests, because I like to build my \u201cto-be-read pile,\u201d what they\u2019re reading. Do you want to talk a little bit about, besides Hidden Roots<\/em>, what you\u2019ve been reading lately?<\/p>\n

Judy:<\/strong> Sure. I\u2019ve been trying to read a lot of old favorites so I could recommend them to teachers. And one of the children\u2019s books that I\u2019ve been reading (or re-reading) is March Toward the Thunder<\/a><\/em> by Joe Bruchac. It is a civil war story about Abenaki boy who lies about his age and joins the Civil War to help his family find a place to live in Vermont.<\/p>\n

Also Thanks to the Animals<\/a><\/em> by Allen J. Sockabasin, which is a younger picture book about Zoo Sap, a little baby that falls off a sled and the animals care for him.<\/p>\n

Muskrat Will Be Swimming<\/a><\/em> by Cheryl Savageau is about bullying, name-calling, and it’s another very pertinent book for today.<\/p>\n

And one of Joe\u2019s new ones, Two Roads<\/a><\/em>? Is about a young man who finds out he\u2019s Choctaw from his father who is trying to hide it from him. They separate in life for Two Roads. The young boy has to go to a boarding school. The father goes to Washington to protest against the bonus checks from World War One. They want them earlier because it\u2019s The Depression, and they\u2019re losing their home.<\/p>\n

I’m also reading Race Talk and the Conspiracy of Silence: Understanding and Facilitating Difficult Conversations on Race,<\/a><\/em> by Derald Wing Sue. Very good, lots of vignettes that are based on classroom experiences. It’s very helpful.<\/p>\n

The other one is White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism<\/a><\/em> by Robin DiAngelo. And that is also a very good book.<\/p>\n

Jeanie: <\/strong>Those are excellent suggestions. I’m really excited to dig in.<\/p>\n

I have some questions already, that aren\u2019t even on our list of questions. The first one is I\u00a0 I wondered if you would talk about your identity. You used the word “Abenaki” ([\u0259\u031d b\u025bn \u0259\u031dki’] \/ “uhbENuhkey”). When I came to Vermont, I heard a lot about the “Abenaki” ([\u00e6 b’n\u00e6 ki’] \/ “AbunAHkey”). You pronounce that word differently and I wondered if you want to talk about that.<\/p>\n

Judy:<\/strong> Sure. So, the word Wabanahki<\/i> describes the people of the Northeast. \u201cWaban\u201d is white, \u201cAhki\u201d is land. People from the white land, or the dawn land, where the sun first rises. And the English pronounce that word as [\u00e6 b’n\u00e6 ki’].<\/p>\n

Along the Hudson River valley into New York were large Dutch settlements. And they said [\u028a b’n\u00e6 ki’]. The French, however, had no sound for “w”. They took the word Wabanahki<\/i> and made it [\u0259\u031d b\u025bn \u0259\u031dki’].<\/p>\n

So you can tell someone\u2019s ancestral background by how they pronounce the word. My first language is French so it’s pretty difficult for me to change [\u0259\u031d b\u025bn \u0259\u031dki’] to [\u00e6 b’n\u00e6 ki’] at this point in my life.<\/p>\n

Jeanie: <\/strong>How do you recommend that I as a white Vermonter pronounce the word?<\/p>\n

Judy:<\/strong> I guess you could probably pronounce it any way you\u2019d like. But you might want to ask the people you\u2019re talking to what they would prefer to be called, because they may have a preference. They may prefer [\u0259\u031d b\u025bn \u0259\u031dki’] or [\u00e6 b’n\u00e6 ki’] or Wabanahki<\/i>. I think just simply asking them what they prefer would be the best way to handle it.<\/span><\/p>\n

Jeanie: <\/strong>Great. During this podcast then I’m going to pronounce the word the way you pronounce it, and say [\u0259\u031d b\u025bn \u0259\u031dki’].<\/p>\n

Judy:<\/strong> Sounds good!<\/p>\n

Jeanie:<\/strong> Before we launch into Hidden Roots — <\/em>which is just such a beautiful book — I had read it years ago. Before we get into the discussion of Hidden Roots<\/em>, could you give us a little history of Vermont and the Native peoples who lived here?<\/p>\n

I guess this is another place where I want to ask you about a preferred term. I have known folks in the past who preferred to be called Native Americans. I\u2019ve known folks who preferred to be called Indians. I\u2019ve known folks who preferred to be called just Native. I wonder if you could offer us a preferred term.<\/p>\n

Judy:<\/strong> Well again, I know what I prefer but the person you\u2019re speaking to may have a different preference, so it would be best to ask what they would prefer. But just as you might visit another place like Canada, you would say American, you are American.<\/p>\n

Abenaki people might prefer to be called Abenaki. Mohawk people, Mohawk. The linguistic group they belong to is Iroquoian or Algonquian. You might refer to them as an Algonquin-speaking person, or a First Nations person, or an Indigenous person.<\/p>\n

So I think the best thing is to ask what people would prefer to be called. Everybody has their different thoughts.<\/p>\n

The term “Indian” is interesting for me. I\u2019ve spoken to a lot of elders and asked them why they use the term Indian. They have often told me things like, “Well, all the books are written so that the stories are about Indians. I want my grandchildren to know and my great-grandchildren to know that those stories about us? *We* are the Indians they\u2019re talking about.”<\/p>\n

They frequently use the word Indian to discuss who they are and to self-identify with who they are for the purposes of allowing their grandchildren and great-grandchildren to know who their ancestors were.<\/p>\n

Jeanie: <\/strong>So you\u2019re making me think a lot about– I think especially in schools, right? We teach Native American units, say. And people use that phrase and it makes me wonder about the generalization when we use something like Indians or Native Americans.<\/p>\n

Sometimes I\u2019ve been using Indigenous more and I like the Canadian term, First Nations. What I like about First Nations is that it’s plural as opposed to grouping everyone together.<\/p>\n

Judy:<\/strong> Yes. Sometimes Native Americans or American Indians are so generic. It leads people to believe that they\u2019re all the same and they\u2019re really not. Every nation is distinct and different in their ethics, morals and values. And that needs to reflect in what you call them.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s why it’s so important to call them by what they want to be referred to as.<\/p>\n

And I think that Native American can refer to anyone born here as well. So that adds to the confusion. I think you see a lot more “American Indian” east of the Mississippi and “Native American” west of the Mississippi. So there\u2019s differences across the country as well.<\/p>\n

Jeanie: <\/strong>This is so helpful to me as I think about the way we teach. Especially thinking about this preference to ask people what they prefer to be called? I think one of the problems is that we often teach First Nations people as if they\u2019re only in the past.<\/p>\n

Judy:<\/strong> Yes. Correct. Which is very problematic because they still exist today and it’s the goal of this country to make us invisible so we eventually disappear. And by only talking about us in the past that\u2019s exactly what happens, we become invisible.<\/p>\n

Jeanie: <\/strong>That\u2019s part of the problem.<\/p>\n

Judy:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n

Jeanie: <\/strong>Oh my goodness, I could talk to you for days. Let\u2019s jump into this book. Am I right that Joseph Bruchac is a friend of yours?<\/p>\n

Judy:<\/strong> Yes. I’m working right now on a project to get him to come to the Windham Southeast Supervisory Union to do presentations for the students down there. I think the students will enjoy him and his son Jesse, and how they tell their stories. I think they could probably answer some questions for students about their writing.<\/p>\n

Interview: <\/strong>Excellent. I would love to know more about that! Maybe I\u2019ll try to spell for an invitation.<\/p>\n

So Hidden Roots<\/em> is set in the 1950s and I wondered if you would introduce us to Howie, the main character in the book.<\/p>\n

Judy:<\/strong> Sure, Howie is an 11-year old boy who lives in Sparta, New York with his parents. And in this story it’s along the Hudson River. He\u2019s sometimes called Sonny; it’s his nickname that he\u2019s gotten because he\u2019s the son of his father, right? And they are very much the same.<\/p>\n

He has a troubled life because of a family secret that he hasn\u2019t quite figured out yet. And his father is angry most of the time, for lots of reasons. But primarily there\u2019s historical trauma being passed from one generation to the next generation, that\u2019s not being addressed or talked about. And so there’s lots of lessons within this book.<\/p>\n

Jeanie: <\/strong>Yes. Oof. I’m going ahead and read from page 32 of the book because it sets a nice scene for us about Howie\u2019s relationship with his uncle Louis.<\/p>\n

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