{"id":25469,"date":"2020-05-07T08:30:04","date_gmt":"2020-05-07T12:30:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/?p=25469"},"modified":"2024-08-31T10:36:06","modified_gmt":"2024-08-31T14:36:06","slug":"vted-reads-stamped-by-jason-reynolds","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/vted-reads-stamped-by-jason-reynolds\/","title":{"rendered":"#vted Reads: Stamped, by Jason Reynolds"},"content":{"rendered":"<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-25469-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/05\/Stamped_Erika_Saunders.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/05\/Stamped_Erika_Saunders.mp3\">https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/05\/Stamped_Erika_Saunders.mp3<\/a><\/audio>\n<p>I&#8217;m Jeanie Phillips, and this is Vermont Ed Reads: books by, for and with Vermont educators. Today we&#8217;re joined by Philadelphia-based educator and &#8220;Learning Maximizer&#8221; Erika Saunders, to talk about the book <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/52220686-stamped?ac=1&amp;from_search=true&amp;qid=MnZSnP8U1n&amp;rank=2\"><em>Stamped: Racism, Anti-Racism, and You<\/em><\/a>, by Jason Reynolds and Ibram X. Kendi.<\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Jeanie:<\/b> Thank you so much for joining me, Erika. Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Hi! Well, first of all thank you so much for asking me to join you. My name&#8217;s Erika Sanders. I\u2019m an educator here in Philadelphia. I&#8217;ve been working in urban environment, educating for about 17 years. I\u2019m a special education teacher and I call myself <a href=\"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/learning-maximizers\/\">The Learning Maximizer.<\/a> Because what I do is teach children how to maximize their learning. So, I\u2019m thrilled to talk education. And clearly, this book hold very dear place in my heart. *laughs* So, I\u2019m excited to chat with you about it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> I am so excited that you\u2019re joining me. And I also just want to say you are also on the <a href=\"https:\/\/middlegradescollaborative.org\/institute\/\">Middle Grades Institute<\/a> faculty. And we\u2019re delighted to have you as a faculty member.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Thank you. Yes, I am. That\u2019s a new one for me. Thank you for reminding me.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> So, I always ask this question at the beginning because I\u2019m a librarian at heart and I\u2019m curious about it. But: what else are you reading? Or what other books might you recommend?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Wow, that\u2019s an excellent question. So, sort of in general? I started <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/41970684-we-got-this?ac=1&amp;from_search=true&amp;qid=uzhHjWw2Pr&amp;rank=1\"><em>We Got This: Equity, Access, and The Quest to Be Who Our Students Need Us To Be<\/em><\/a>, by Cornelius Minor. Which I\u2019m looking at sitting right over there. I highly recommend that book. It\u2019s accessible. And digestible. And yet has some pretty powerful pieces to it. For leisure, I am a huge young adult fiction fan &#8212; not to mention I worked with middle school students often &#8212; so a lot of what I read is sort of the middle school literature. So, if you want to relax and enjoy and just sit back, I highly recommend grabbing some of that really good juicy middle years literature that\u2019s out there. Because it\u2019s really gotten pretty exciting over the years.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> I couldn\u2019t agree more. Some of my favorite books are middle grades and young adult books, absolutely.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Absolutely.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> <a href=\"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/vted-reads-we-got-this-with-kathleen-brinegar\/\">And I love Cornelius Minor&#8217;s <em>We Got This<\/em><\/a>. I think it\u2019s so practical.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Yeah. When I picked it up I found that it was something that was also accessible. With my focus being Special Ed, sometimes when I\u2019m looking at a book, I look at it through that lens. And whether or not even the formatting of it and how it\u2019s presented is something that feels accessible to a lot of people? And there was something about this that had that feel. Where, especially around race where it can be very emotional and dense and sometimes academic in a way that\u2019s unaccessible? When I looked at this I thought, wow, this is something that has lots of access points. Visually, how it\u2019s laid out, how you can sort of digest pieces of it, and not feel overwhelmed. So, I\u2019m very, very excited about that one too.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> That\u2019s a great lead in to this book: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/52220686-stamped?ac=1&amp;from_search=true&amp;qid=EbZCPyVelq&amp;rank=1\"><em>Stamped: Racism, Anti-Racism and You<\/em><\/a>. Because Ibram X. Kendi, the co-author of this book, wrote a really dense &#8212; really, really, really dense &#8212; book called <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/25898216-stamped-from-the-beginning?from_search=true&amp;from_srp=true&amp;qid=kFafT364QC&amp;rank=1\"><em>Stamped From the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America<\/em><\/a>.\u00a0And I read about, I would say a third of it before finally I was like I can\u2019t do this and be in a doctoral program too. That book&#8217;s been rewritten, or remixed as Jason Reynolds says, for young people in such a way that it\u2019s really accessible, is what I found. Did you also find this to be very accessible?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> I did. And accessible to young people too. And I love the way you mentioned it remixed. You know you\u2019re really tapping into that young adult audience, and inviting them in, in a way that feels connected a bit to them. And I loved that about this book. Because these are important topics. And these are topics that often hit very deeply, in ways that we might not even realize? And can have the ability to divide people, especially sometimes, when you\u2019re presenting truth that is hard to take if you are, sort of the person who\u2019s *not* oppressed. You&#8217;re in sort of more the oppressor role in terms of your race or, how you identify. Not that you *are* that person, but that can be a hard thing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And so, having that be accessible that way? And then also, on the flip side, because as an African American woman here, in the United States, there\u2019s enough trauma, you know? \u00a0Intergenerational and ancestral trauma that, seeing it again can tap into a lot of things. From sadness and defeat&#8230; to anger. And you separate yourself. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I read some things where honestly I needed to not &#8212; quite frankly &#8212; be around white people for a little bit. Because it\u2019s hard not to feel that. And I felt that this particular book kind of walked that tone very nicely. Where there\u2019s almost some humorous points to diffuse some of that. And presented in sort of these small chunks that you can kind of get to and then step back from for a minute. So, I really love the way he crafted, what I considered a work of art.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> That\u2019s beautifully said and I think of Ibram X. Kendi I\u2019ve read and, I\u2019ve also read his How to Be An Anti-Racist. And he\u2019s a scholar, right? He\u2019s a professor and he writes with a real scholarly tone. And Jason Reynolds changes that tone quite a bit. He adds a little bit of play and a little bit of reading space. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So, let\u2019s start with their voices.<\/span><\/p>\n<div class=\"epyt-video-wrapper\">\n<div  style=\"display: block; margin: 0px auto;\"  id=\"_ytid_80559\"  width=\"525\" height=\"295\"  data-origwidth=\"525\" data-origheight=\"295\" data-facadesrc=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/ZjUTtpWSeiU?enablejsapi=1&#038;autoplay=0&#038;cc_load_policy=1&#038;cc_lang_pref=&#038;iv_load_policy=1&#038;loop=0&#038;modestbranding=1&#038;rel=0&#038;fs=1&#038;playsinline=1&#038;autohide=2&#038;theme=dark&#038;color=red&#038;controls=1&#038;\" class=\"__youtube_prefs__ epyt-facade epyt-is-override  no-lazyload\" data-epautoplay=\"1\" ><img decoding=\"async\" data-spai-excluded=\"true\" class=\"epyt-facade-poster skip-lazy\" loading=\"lazy\"  alt=\"Erika Saunders &amp; Jeanie Phillips read from &quot;Stamped: Racism, Anti-Racism and You&quot;\"  src=\"https:\/\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/ZjUTtpWSeiU\/maxresdefault.jpg\"  \/><button class=\"epyt-facade-play\" aria-label=\"Play\"><svg data-no-lazy=\"1\" height=\"100%\" version=\"1.1\" viewBox=\"0 0 68 48\" width=\"100%\"><path class=\"ytp-large-play-button-bg\" d=\"M66.52,7.74c-0.78-2.93-2.49-5.41-5.42-6.19C55.79,.13,34,0,34,0S12.21,.13,6.9,1.55 C3.97,2.33,2.27,4.81,1.48,7.74C0.06,13.05,0,24,0,24s0.06,10.95,1.48,16.26c0.78,2.93,2.49,5.41,5.42,6.19 C12.21,47.87,34,48,34,48s21.79-0.13,27.1-1.55c2.93-0.78,4.64-3.26,5.42-6.19C67.94,34.95,68,24,68,24S67.94,13.05,66.52,7.74z\" fill=\"#f00\"><\/path><path d=\"M 45,24 27,14 27,34\" fill=\"#fff\"><\/path><\/svg><\/button><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> \u00a0I should note that you and I both listened to the audiobook reading by Jason Reynolds\u00a0<\/span><span class=\"s1\">which is amazingly read.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Absolutely.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0I also loved that Jason Reynolds starts this book, about a conversation that we, especially white folks, we feel very uncomfortable talking about: he starts it off with some deep breaths. And some: &#8220;You got this.&#8221;<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Yeah, I was actually shocked in the most pleasant way when I heard him say, one: put it out there. You know: race, the R word. We know we want to run from that! And then he just says like, <\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">&#8220;Okay, let\u2019s take a deep breath. Let\u2019s inhale and exhale. <em>Race<\/em>.&#8221;<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"> And then right after that, it was like: &#8220;See? Not so bad.&#8221;<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Again: giving the permission that these terms, this subject that\u2019s so taboo, and so argumentative and so separating &#8212; especially in today\u2019s world &#8212; doesn\u2019t have to be. It\u2019s not easy; there\u2019s some difficult parts. And yet we\u2019ve done that before in so many other areas. Yet we get to race, the issues about this country and how it\u2019s, kind of gotten to where it is, and it becomes this, no, no, let\u2019s not. So, again, making it the sort of accessible thing. And even saying, okay, you know what? We\u2019re going to take a deep breath, we\u2019re going to be okay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah. It\u2019s almost like this book is a way of inviting us in to say this is uncomfortable to talk about and yet so necessary. I really appreciate the framing, how Kendi defines racism and anti-racism. And then I also really appreciate this other framing, right on page three, it starts right away, that the authors want us to keep in mind these three words as we read, and they are: <\/span><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li class=\"p1\"><strong><span class=\"s1\">segregationists<\/span><\/strong><\/li>\n<li class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>assimilationists<\/strong>, and <\/span><\/li>\n<li class=\"p1\"><strong><span class=\"s1\">anti-racists.<\/span><\/strong><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I also love that Kendi and Reynolds start us off with some really great definitions to frame this text. And there are three of them, so I\u2019m going to share them. They are from pages three and four.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"> I love how Jason Reynolds put them in this, like you said, accessible language for kids.<\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Segregationists are haters. Like <em>real<\/em> haters. People who hate you for not being like them. Assimilationists are people who like you but only with quotation marks. Like&#8230; &#8220;like&#8221; you. Meaning they &#8220;like&#8221; you because you\u2019re like them. And then there are anti-racists. They <em>love<\/em> you because you\u2019re like you. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But it\u2019s important to note, life can rarely be wrapped into single-word descriptions. It isn\u2019t neat and perfectly shaped. So sometimes over the course of a lifetime (and even over the course of a day), people can take on and act out ideas represented by more than one of these three identities. Can be <em>both,<\/em><em>and.<\/em>\u00a0Just keep that in mind as we explore these folks. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And by folks, I think Jason Reynolds is really talking about, all the historical figures that we&#8217;re going to follow through this long chapters of American history.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Yeah, just again: so brilliantly put, in a simplistic way. Because these are complicated concepts that adults struggle with. And have and continue, etc. So, to kind of boil it down to its essence? And put it again in these sort of everyday terms? And again I\u2019m feeling the unapologetically sort of, Black access points. Because that\u2019s who he is and why not make it that way, you know? &#8220;Segregationists&#8221;, &#8220;haters&#8221;. Not that other people can understand that, but I access this book as a Black woman and I\u2019m like: <em>yes<\/em>.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"> I was listening to the audiobook one day in my kitchen and honest to goodness, I felt almost like the traditional church group, you know? I put my hands up while he was speaking.\u00a0And\u00a0I was like: &#8220;Yes! Preach!&#8221; <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Because it just felt so real and living, as opposed to sterile.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Then also feeling that connection with my life because I remember when assimilation was my goal. I might not have understood it, sort of separate from myself, but it was clear that my job was to make exactly what he says: to make you all like me. Not for who I am, but for how well I present myself. And making sure, that I was doing everything *I* needed to do to assimilate and have you all like me. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And it wasn\u2019t until I got older &#8212; and I mean *older* &#8212; easily into my thirties, forties, before that concept of anti-racists hit me as well. *I* had to come to a point as well where *I* took an anti-racist approach with my own race. Like: no, no this is me and I want people to like me for me. Not because I\u2019ve fit into your box. Or that I\u2019m not, making you uncomfortable. So, I connected with that where some people might not have thought the Black community could kind of see themselves through these definitions.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Well, I just have so many thoughts right now. One is that I really appreciate how this moves us beyond our racist \/ non-racist binary. It moves us into like: we can find ourselves sliding around on this continuum a little bit. <\/span><span class=\"s1\">And one person that Kendi and Reynolds really talk about sliding around on this continuum is W.E.B. Du Bois, right? Who, for much of his life, spends a lot of his time as an assimilationist. Wanting Black folks to sort of&#8230; emulate white folks in order to be accepted, right? And so they really explore W.E.B. Du Bois own experience as an activist through that lens, too. Like you said: these terms can apply to all of us, right? We can, regardless of our background, find ourselves somewhere at different points on this continuum, at different times in our lives.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Absolutely. There are times every day where I *need* to slide between assimilation and anti-racist just to make it. I often try to avoid sliding all the way back to the segregation because, to me that kind of does mean the hate of myself and the natural qualities that come with me. But there are moments where if I\u2019m going to be successful in *this* moment at *this* time, so I can make it to the next step? I have to do a little assimilation. You know? And, then, step into something else.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0*laughs*<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Right, right. And I see that. I see that as a pragmatic thing. My understanding, from people of color I\u2019ve talked to, is that you can feel the need to assimilate, in order to meet professional goals, right? To like, get ahead in the workplace. That it can feel really like, necessary maybe, to get that title behind your name or to dress in a certain way in academia, or to present in a certain way. To code-switch, if you will, in order to get your professional needs met. Because we live in a racist society. And this can often be completely invisible to white folks who don\u2019t even see it because they swim in whiteness.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely! Absolutely. I would have assumed that no white folk even understood this is what\u2019s going on. So, absolutely good point about code-switching. Somehow, I never liked the term. I don\u2019t know what it is about it that sort of rubs me the wrong way and it could just be my experience. I understand it, and I understand the need for it. But I mean, sometimes it\u2019s about your job, in order to get to that anti-racist point, you\u2019ve got to do some assimilation, and then kind of gently move yourself around. Sometimes, you\u2019re sick of it. And you just put it out there.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And sometimes, as we all know &#8212; and forgive me if I choke up here &#8212; you have to do it to live. <\/span><span class=\"s1\">It\u2019s not even about making that job&#8230; it\u2019s about making it home. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I have a son, and he\u2019s an adult now, how we have those conversations about: absolutely assimilate. Don\u2019t be threatening, because you are; you are already a threat. And, we\u2019re back in that segregationist moment, you know? You\u2019re already a threat, so you better assimilate, so that you can present yourself as less. So, excellent point of what you were saying. It\u2019s situational, its moment to moment. It\u2019s live, get home, move through your job. And for many of us, it\u2019s something we learned so young that we navigate that world. What it does to us, on a deeper level can be &#8212; it\u2019s trauma.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> I just keep thinking about that survival strategy, and the survival strategy for children of The Talk, right? T<\/span><span class=\"s1\">he real privilege as a white mother is that I don\u2019t have to have that talk. That&#8217;s a huge privilege. That I don\u2019t have those same worries because my son is a white kid in a white supremacist society.<\/span><\/p>\n<div class=\"epyt-video-wrapper\">\n<div  style=\"display: block; margin: 0px auto;\"  id=\"_ytid_78403\"  width=\"525\" height=\"295\"  data-origwidth=\"525\" data-origheight=\"295\" data-facadesrc=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/coryt8IZ-DE?enablejsapi=1&#038;autoplay=0&#038;cc_load_policy=1&#038;cc_lang_pref=&#038;iv_load_policy=1&#038;loop=0&#038;modestbranding=1&#038;rel=0&#038;fs=1&#038;playsinline=1&#038;autohide=2&#038;theme=dark&#038;color=red&#038;controls=1&#038;\" class=\"__youtube_prefs__ epyt-facade epyt-is-override  no-lazyload\" data-epautoplay=\"1\" ><img decoding=\"async\" data-spai-excluded=\"true\" class=\"epyt-facade-poster skip-lazy\" loading=\"lazy\"  alt=\"Black Parents Explain How to Deal with the Police | Cut\"  src=\"https:\/\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/coryt8IZ-DE\/maxresdefault.jpg\"  \/><button class=\"epyt-facade-play\" aria-label=\"Play\"><svg data-no-lazy=\"1\" height=\"100%\" version=\"1.1\" viewBox=\"0 0 68 48\" width=\"100%\"><path class=\"ytp-large-play-button-bg\" d=\"M66.52,7.74c-0.78-2.93-2.49-5.41-5.42-6.19C55.79,.13,34,0,34,0S12.21,.13,6.9,1.55 C3.97,2.33,2.27,4.81,1.48,7.74C0.06,13.05,0,24,0,24s0.06,10.95,1.48,16.26c0.78,2.93,2.49,5.41,5.42,6.19 C12.21,47.87,34,48,34,48s21.79-0.13,27.1-1.55c2.93-0.78,4.64-3.26,5.42-6.19C67.94,34.95,68,24,68,24S67.94,13.05,66.52,7.74z\" fill=\"#f00\"><\/path><path d=\"M 45,24 27,14 27,34\" fill=\"#fff\"><\/path><\/svg><\/button><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"> One of my favorite sections of the book I think, is actually about this. And it has new language that I was unfamiliar with, and I don\u2019t know if it was new for you. It\u2019s Chapter Nine, page 65. I\u2019m going to read it because I think it\u2019s speaking to just what we\u2019re talking about right here. It\u2019s called Uplift Suasion. Were you familiar with that term, \u2018Uplift Suasion\u2019?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> No, I was not.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Me neither. So, it says:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/StampedImages-10-scaled.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-25574\" src=\"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/StampedImages-10-768x1024.jpg\" alt=\"Stamped Jason Reynolds\" width=\"450\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/StampedImages-10-768x1024.jpg 768w, https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/StampedImages-10-225x300.jpg 225w, https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/StampedImages-10-1152x1536.jpg 1152w, https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/StampedImages-10-1536x2048.jpg 1536w, https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/StampedImages-10-scaled.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I think what\u2019s so powerful to me about this passage is that it\u2019s said at the beginning of the book, in the person of history. It says that around the 1790s is really where the authors start to see this emerge. And yet I would say this is still very much a reality of how we live today.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely. As you\u2019re reading it, and I\u2019m nodding my head, and whatnot, again, it\u2019s just, it\u2019s my life. It\u2019s my life of how I was brought up. It\u2019s how I\u2019m trying to bring up my son, you know who\u2019s, again, a *Black* male. So, by definition, a life-threatening presence that is worthy of being put down, the way one might&#8230; <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I remember talking with my nephew as well about this, like, where else, what other circumstances, would you shoot to kill?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">That this threat is so significant that it\u2019s completely understandable that you shoot to kill first&#8230; then ask questions later. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I literally went like: grizzly bear. Like that\u2019s all I could think of, you\u2019re in the woods up, upright right there is such a threat that you don\u2019t wait to see, oh, is it friendly, is it going away from me? Is it? \u00a0And then as sad as it would be, everyone would understand why you felt such a threat. And this is my *child*.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>*deep breath*<\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">An interesting thing is that I\u2019d never heard the term &#8220;uplift suasion&#8221; &#8212; am I saying that correctly?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> But the idea of &#8220;uppity&#8221;, which I believe this is. That\u2019s the term. Oh, absolutely! Because growing up we were the uppity Negroes in my community; we were the uppity ones. We were everything you described. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So we dressed properly. And we went to church. No matter what our position was, we held it with grace. We defused. We would not do anything that was a perceived threat. And these things weren\u2019t said out loud, explicitly, but that\u2019s what you understood. I grew up distinctly remembering that I needed to be better than all of my white counterparts growing up in Ocean City, New Jersey.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">If you know anything about that town, it&#8217;s very, very white, very upper-middle class, very privileged. Very Christian. \u00a0I knew right from very early on, the need to be better than. And that was how I presented myself. That was my grades, that was my activities, that was the people I associated with. And again, as we talked about a little bit getting into that segregationists where I was clearly: <\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">&#8220;Oh, no, no, I\u2019m not them. No, no, no, no, I\u2019m not *those* Black people, no, no, I\u2019m with you on that. That\u2019s awful. No, no, I\u2019m here. It\u2019s okay.&#8221;<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So, again as I\u2019m listening to it, it\u2019s one of the first times I\u2019ve heard this kind of depiction where I\u2019m going: yes. That is exactly it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> It echoed your lived experience. Do you think that students, the students you work with, students of color, still feel that need to assimilate and fit in?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> I think they definitely feel the pressure to. Because I sort of hear it in different ways. And it\u2019s interesting because, being an educator of predominantly children of color, and seeing their experiences, and knowing in a way what they\u2019re going to need to do to succeed, and yet realizing: these children don\u2019t know a world where the *possibility* of a Black president isn\u2019t there. They don\u2019t know that world. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Yet on the flip side, they know that simply being &#8220;whatever while Black&#8221; &#8212; being at Starbucks here in Philadelphia while Black, barbecuing while Black &#8212; could end your life.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And that becomes a very difficult thing for them. As I watch them trying navigate doing what we just talked about &#8212; what you might need to do in this moment to get where you need to get &#8212; so that you can do and powerfully do all these things you\u2019re doing.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m just so aware of all of the times that the double standard continues to exist. In this current moment, I\u2019ve been thinking about two things. One is wearing a mask in public, and the acceptability of that being very dependent on race and racist attitudes, right? And how you\u2019re perceived if you\u2019re wearing a face covering. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">The other is that I\u2019ve been really wondering, and I\u2019m sure I\u2019m not the only one, what would be happening right now if the people protesting at Statehouses about opening up the economy, were Black instead of white? And thinking about what those protests look like as opposed to what the Black Lives Matter protests looked like, right? Those were like just two really present current-day examples of sort of the way racism plays out in action.<\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"twitter-tweet\" data-width=\"525\" data-dnt=\"true\">\n<p lang=\"en\" dir=\"ltr\">Tamir Rice was 12 years old, playing with a toy gun when police rolled up on him and killed him within two seconds.<\/p>\n<p>These white nationalist terrorists storm the Michigan State House with real weapons and they go home to their families tonight.<\/p>\n<p>What&#39;s the difference? White skin. <a href=\"https:\/\/t.co\/65OHVHaCR6\">https:\/\/t.co\/65OHVHaCR6<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&mdash; Kevin Bailey (@KevBaile) <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/KevBaile\/status\/1255953005490421761?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">April 30, 2020<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><script async src=\"https:\/\/platform.twitter.com\/widgets.js\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika<\/strong>: And what I was going to say is that these are discussions that definitely happen in Black homes, in Black communities, among Black folk. Again, that word, I know in the African American community, especially here in America, you know that &#8220;folk&#8221; means something. It means lots of things. It oftentimes means your people, but it can be used in both ways, right? Like: &#8220;Folk meeting us&#8221;, and &#8220;Stay away from those folks, over there&#8221;. And I think about different terms in different communities and how it can take on multiple meanings.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But I mean absolutely. We have those conversations literally all the time. Here in Philadelphia when there was the celebration of the Eagles, finally, winning a Super Bowl which we all celebrated, although it was still during Colin Kaepernick protesting. Everything is such a dichotomy sometimes, right? But me sitting there watching people on TV climb up lampposts, destroying cars, etcetera, etcetera. And you know, my son and I looking at each other like, they would have shot us by now. As almost an offhand &#8212; and yet knowing we mean that wholeheartedly.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> That\u2019s a hard truth to carry.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Exactly and carried every day. I think that\u2019s the other thing. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0So, what that makes me think about is that this book really chronicles this idea that racist ideas were used to justify slavery and genocide *as* we colonized the nation that we now call America, right? Like, as we colonized other peoples land, racism came with us. And helped us be able to do these like, morally dodgy things: enslave people, commit mass murder. And that\u2019s not usually how we teach the founding of this country. At all. And it\u2019s not really what I learned in the social studies classroom, right? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So, this book kind of turns it on its head. I\u2019m trying to think about my own experience, my own lived experience, and I would say that I think the way we often framed racism is to say, &#8220;Oh, racism comes because of slavery.&#8221; <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Instead of thinking that slavery that racism came here and justified slavery. And was encoded into laws in order to do that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong>\u00a0I would even go a step further to say it didn\u2019t just do it to justify. This country couldn\u2019t work &#8212; not then, not now &#8212; without it.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I was in college before I saw a diagram of a slave ship. And how they transported slaves. As horrific as I understood it to be &#8212; Roots was just mind-blowing in my life, when I was younger &#8212; I assumed they sat up. In chairs, or not really in chairs, but with planks. Chained to each other, which was a horrendous thing in the first place, but sitting up, next to one another, and that\u2019s how they were transported. Isn\u2019t that horrible? They were in the bowels of the ship and all of that. But of course they were sitting up.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And to see a diagram where the idea of that packing? Literally on top of those, crushing those underneath. It\u2019s the way you would do with any other&#8230; commodity.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> So, that really interests me in several ways. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">One is: I\u2019m really wondering about how we need to prepare teachers, or what teachers need to do to prepare themselves, to teach hard history. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And <a href=\"http:\/\/teachingtolerance.org\">Teaching Tolerance<\/a> is a great source for that, right? Like they have resources on teaching, literally called <a href=\"https:\/\/www.tolerance.org\/frameworks\/teaching-hard-history\/american-slavery\">Teaching Hard History<\/a>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.tolerance.org\/frameworks\/teaching-hard-history\/american-slavery\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-25599 size-large\" src=\"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/teaching_hard_history-1024x518.jpg\" alt=\"stamped jason reynolds Screenshot from TeachingTolerance.org\" width=\"474\" height=\"240\" srcset=\"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/teaching_hard_history-1024x518.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/teaching_hard_history-300x152.jpg 300w, https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/teaching_hard_history-768x389.jpg 768w, https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/teaching_hard_history.jpg 1229w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 474px) 100vw, 474px\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And then this concern that if we only teach slavery, like if we only teach Black History where it\u2019s only about the trauma and the pain, and where there isn\u2019t a real sense of agency for Black and brown folks, that\u2019s also problematic. So I guess, I think that Teaching Tolerance talks a lot about that as curriculum violence. What do you think teachers need to be aware of if they\u2019re going to have frank conversations about race in history and racism in history in their classrooms?<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika: <\/strong>T<\/span><span class=\"s1\">he harsh reality is, until you understand, until you really *understand* how your very life benefits, from this thing called race and oppression, how do you have that conversation?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">One of the things that scares me the most, in terms of the damage that could be done to our young people of color is a &#8220;woke&#8221; liberal white female teacher. That to me is this.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Are you looking at me, Erika? It&#8217;s okay.<\/p>\n<p>*both laugh*<\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> As a group! As a whole group! You know, you\u2019re asking the right questions. And yet, we\u2019re all going to make mistakes. We\u2019re all going to trip in our way here. Sometimes &#8212; again, I come very harsh from the old school &#8212; sometimes I see how that can emasculate our young men. And yet, here I am, you know, preaching that for their survival. So it becomes a very difficult, tricky thing think that I sometimes wonder what is the answer. And it\u2019s hard because, again: starting at slavery, means we start from a point of we were always oppressed. Imagine. Imagine if we taught in this country, that we started history coming from the origin of humanity. Kings. Queens. Richest person in the world, technology, agriculture, architecture, all of the things that we admire in this world, originated, came from, was stolen from, people of color.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0It&#8217;s like our colonialist lens run so deep that we can\u2019t even see &#8212; gosh, I hate using the &#8220;we&#8221;. The American colonialist perspective runs so deep that it\u2019s hard for us to see or acknowledge all of the other ways of knowing and being in the world that are of value. So, you see through this really narrow lens. And that narrow lens which came across the Atlantic with us, prescribes history in this really narrow way. And then, I think that Ibram X. Kendi and Jason Reynolds point out that our first educational institution, Harvard University, is steeped in that. Is steeped in that perspective.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So, it makes me think of all the work. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I think what you\u2019re calling out, and I agree, about woke white women educators is that there\u2019s a lot of work that has to be done personally to understand our own privilege in order to be even able to have these kinds of conversations. It makes me think when I was a school librarian at a middle and high school, often, this issue would come up with students where they would be talking about race and racism, and students would often say, <\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">&#8220;Well, my family didn\u2019t own slaves. This has nothing to do with me.&#8221;<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I wish I had had this book at that time to help me better have language. Or help me help them understand the way it\u2019s all connected. The way that their history, their family genealogy is connected.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> And I think that\u2019s a good point about this book and the accessibility of it. Because again, it does sort of give language that\u2019s&#8230; more easily understood. More easily consumed, more easily brought in these smaller pieces. Because even as I\u2019m talking to you, it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and, you\u2019re sort of back to: &#8220;What do you do?&#8221;<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"> And I never want to get to that point, because obviously there are things we can do. How brilliant of these two gentlemen to come up with, you know a book like this. That\u2019s not my forte.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><span class=\"s1\">And yet, both you and I can use this in different ways.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">It\u2019s funny you said, &#8220;understanding privilege&#8221;. \u00a0I was talking to someone about even that term and again we needed something to understand how, just sort of whiteness allows things to happen. And I was sitting there going, well, we use this term &#8220;privilege&#8221;; even that puts that perspective in a superior position. Even the word &#8220;privileged&#8221;, we tried to evolve to sort of White Frailty to kind of understand that. Actually, this is a disadvantage because the privilege that we\u2019re talking about is a disadvantage.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Yeah. That&#8217;s such a good point. I wonder what it would look like if we talked about how our systems privileged people instead of calling people privileged, right? Because that\u2019s the point. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">One of the things that I think is brought up in this book is redlining, right? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And so, after World War II, veterans were given money. My grandfather, for example, was given enough money to build a house, even though he had like a middle school education. He wasn&#8217;t an educated man;\u00a0<\/span><span class=\"s1\">I come from a really working class people. But he bought 10 acres in Pennsylvania and built a house and was allowed to sort of settle in a certain part of town. And this is in Washington, Pennsylvania where I grew up. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">That wasn\u2019t allowed for everybody, right? Like people of color were pushed into apartments in cities and towns. And like redlining was a part of that. And it\u2019s still something that\u2019s ongoing. in terms We don\u2019t call it redlining anymore, right? But there\u2019s still systems in place that make it easier that privilege white folks for buying houses, especially in specific areas.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And so, instead of thinking of my grandfather as a privileged human, I think about the systems and how the systems disproportionately privilege some folks over others. some racial groups over other racial groups. And I think Ibram Kendi really asks us to look beyond intent to impact and to say: something is racist if it has racist implications on the population, right?<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"> Like if the outcomes are racist. If you can look at that and see this proportionality than that policy, regardless of its intent, is racist.<\/span><span class=\"s1\"> I\u2019m just playing with that idea because we use that word, &#8220;privilege&#8221;. We\u2019ve been using that word a lot. I use that word a lot; I think about that word a lot. But I really hear what you\u2019re saying and it\u2019s not that white folks are privileged folks, but that the systems privileges them.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Yeah. I mean, I think we get to the term sometimes where language matters. A lot of things I see in social media groups I\u2019m a part of as a Black person, is where we say things like &#8220;Representation matters. Being able to see yourself matters. &#8221; Words matter too. <\/span><span class=\"s1\"> Imagine, just imagine if we flipped it, again, the way they did in this book to say: &#8220;No, no, that\u2019s oppression. That\u2019s what that is. It\u2019s oppression. <\/span><span class=\"s1\">Oppressive systems, put in place to keep people oppressed.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And the privilege that you have is simply you\u2019re part of the oppressors.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Yes. I benefit from an oppressive system.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Exactly. You benefit from the oppression of others, the system that oppresses. Imagine that. Imagine that\u2019s the language that\u2019s used almost the way. Again, they sort of flip the script in terms of how things are done. And not intentionally to make everyone feel bad badly. But this is kind of what\u2019s going on.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So, I think one of the things that I\u2019m thinking about now when you asked me what would it take? I do get very encouraged by the young people. By young people as they come up, being exposed to this book. Because I think it will take sort of this generational push coming from the ground up, of young group understanding more and more. Seeing it in a different way. Being educated about it in a different way. Approaching it a different way, hopefully kind of would move to a point where more people understand that this can\u2019t work this way.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0I appreciate you pushing me on that language because it\u2019s really making me think. I think our country pushes this narrative of the meritocracy. That people who are rich deserve to be rich. This whole idea of bootstraps and pulling yourself up by your boot-straps is a part of the fabric of our nation. And I think that it\u2019s one of the narratives that makes it hard for white folks to see when they\u2019ve benefited from the oppression of others. Because we like to think of ourselves as &#8212; and I\u2019m going to use the language, even though it\u2019s sexist &#8212; as self-made men, right? We want to think of ourselves as self-made men.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I think what that does, I think it does two things. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I think it erases a lot of stories, right? Like, the stories of people work really hard and the system doesn\u2019t benefit them, and so they still have less. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And then I think it also whitewashes folks, and I notice this in the narrative. These sort of American heroes that history whitewashes in that way. So I\u2019m thinking not just of Thomas Jefferson; we know Jefferson was problematic, that he owned slaves, that he had children with one of his slaves, right? But also Abraham Lincoln, who we think of as American Hero, who held a lot of really racist ideas. And in many ways was still not even an assimilationist but a segregationist in his policies, even as he ended slavery.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Absolutely. Again, I grew up the same way in terms of understanding these heroes, including Abraham Lincoln among Black folk. I mean, come on, he freed the slaves, right? Like, that\u2019s the narrative. And it wasn\u2019t until, again, I\u2019m certain I was out of grade school, that I understood what the Emancipation Proclamation did. Who it freed, the political strategy of why that happened. And actually, a surprising person helped me understand this: my sister\u2019s then-husband, from Texas.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And Texas very much celebrates Juneteenth, and had in history. <\/span><span class=\"s1\">He\u2019s the one who sort of helped me understand that there was something else. I was like, what are you talking about? Again: uppity, educated. And he\u2019s like, &#8220;Wow, y&#8217;all are so ignorant up here.&#8221; I\u2019m thinking, I\u2019m ignorant, really? <\/span><span class=\"s1\">But again, because as educated folk, you start to understand these things. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I went to Monticello and I got that tour, not so long ago. And I was heartbroken in the way slaves were presented. But I was told this was a big deal. Not by the tour guides but by my cousin who lived there, because before they didn\u2019t even mention slaves.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">It wasn\u2019t even mentioned. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And the fact now that it was mentioned was such a big deal, with this smiling glee&#8230; And they took you down to the slave quarters and they pumped in the music, and I\u2019m just sitting there &#8212; \u00a0 of course the only Black person there. I was just like looking around like I might be in The Twilight zone and they had just uncovered what they felt was a slave graveyard. But again, sort of starting to understand this and even, and bringing it forward and, telling it from a different standpoint.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> I think this book reminded me to a year or two ago, I read <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/8171378-the-warmth-of-other-suns\"><em>The Warmth of Other Suns<\/em><\/a> by Isabel Wilkerson, which is a history of the Great Migration. And so I think that there\u2019s this common narrative, at least in school social studies, which is like: we had slaves and then the Civil War came and then we ended slavery and all is good, right? And then Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King in the Civil Rights begin, right?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Jim Crow happened too, but I think <em>The Warmth of Other Suns<\/em> really illuminated for me, again, not a history person, the ways in which we ended slavery only for slavery to continue in other forms. In the form of sharecropping, in the form of imprisoning people for no reason and forcing them into labor camps. Right? That Black folks, right after the Civil War, in the years following the Civil War, couldn\u2019t change jobs. Like, in order to migrate to Chicago, they had to leave at dark, and sneak away from their jobs. That\u2019s not freedom. That\u2019s still slavery.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And then thinking about Jason Reynolds and Ibram X. Kendi do such a good job of bringing up, bringing <a href=\"https:\/\/time.com\/5793638\/angela-davis-100-women-of-the-year\/\">Angela Davis<\/a> into their story, which brings really this modern version of slavery, which is mass incarceration.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0We&#8217;ve still got so much work to do.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Erika:<\/strong> So much!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> So much.<span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> So much.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> So, I wondered how you might use this book with students.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> It\u2019s one of those books that I feel would be most, almost most effective cross-curricular.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Oh, I completely agree.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Right? Because everything about race is cross-curricular, you know. As you were just saying: the economics of it, the math, the mathematics of it, the socialization of it, the science, right? Come on, we were 3\/5th of a person, you know. And then, even the modern science of it. How effective and how powerful would this be if teens really did understand that this almost became a *theme* book that sort of helps be the essential questions if you will, of other things that you\u2019re teaching, for a time. That this is a unit where this becomes the fabric through which we channel everything.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You know what I mean? And really connect that. So that it can be seen because I think there is a danger I certainly experienced it, right? The danger of the sort of isolated social studies lesson of exactly what you said, right? There was slavery&#8230; and then Lincoln, yay! Slavery was over! \u00a0Then we had some Civil Rights, good, way to go Rosa and Martin &#8212; never mentioning Malcolm X, of course. And then woo-woo, if you are lucky enough to be young and then Obama. It all works. See how it all worked! A direct line!<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Right. And so there\u2019s no racism anymore because we had Obama!\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Yeah. And yet, we know how dangerous that is, you know. So imagine this being a cross-curricular embedded in everything that\u2019s done.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> I love that idea, Erika. And then one of the things I\u2019ve been thinking about, having read this, is that reading it in a big chunk, like reading the whole thing, listening to the whole thing: it\u2019s a lot, right? You cover a lot of history. And one of the things I wondered about is using chunks of this text along with other texts and ideas. And so, thinking about incorporating John Lewis\u2019s <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/17346698-march\"><em>March<\/em><\/a> series, with section four, right? Which is through 1963, and home is where the hatred is.\u00a0<\/span><span class=\"s1\">And then into Section 5 where Martin Luther King is assassinated, right? So really thinking about those pieces together. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And then also, I was thinking about science and what you said, and there\u2019s a lot about the human genome that comes in in this book towards the end. So thinking about what it would look like to do a little study of this along with <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/13535523-the-immortal-life-of-henrietta-lacks\">Henrietta Lacks<\/a>. And by that, I mean, let\u2019s look about the way her cells were used without her permission or family\u2019s permission.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><span class=\"s1\">And are still used in most of our cancer research! <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So, thinking about how that could be cross-curricular around race and justice in science, and in social studies, and combining with language arts and reading part of that great Henrietta Lacks book. Or even thinking about their sections of this book that reminded me of Katherine Johnson and that fabulous book and movie <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/30840370-hidden-figures\">Hidden Figures<\/a>, right?<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0\u00a0<\/span><span class=\"s1\">And I thought a lot about that book and movie in certain sections of this text as well, and how those things could sort of give kids a better understanding of the way that race plays out across our disciplines in society. I really love that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Yeah, absolutely. And I know this is sort of a, I don\u2019t know, I want to say pipe dream. But: I\u2019ve seen it where I teach, where we serve by far the large percentage of African-American students, particularly students of color, where the proportion is clear that we are the majority at our school &#8212; and yet, we still do not present texts, literatures, ideas, even haven\u2019t forbid 50\/50, in terms of an African-American perspective or person of color perspective.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"> And imagine if what we\u2019re doing in schools is flipping that narrative, so that that perspective is the forefront and that other texts are supporting that in either different views or things like that. The way we\u2019ve taught up until this point, right?<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0\u00a0<\/span><span class=\"s1\">A very white perspective that we kind of filter, and attached and maybe sprinkle a little seasoning on top of which has been our understanding.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"> And imagine again just to try to get things sort of in the equilibrium is flipping that. Swinging that pendulum over to the side. Even trying to spend a year where the main texts, and things that we understand things, *come* from that perspective, as being the perspective, we look through. And then, okay, now understanding that, yes, of course there are others. How do they play in, and what does that do?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"> Imagine the powerful generations that would come through with that.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Everyone is a better person when you can have more vast experiences. When you can step into the shoes of someone else, when you can begin to understand someone else\u2019s perspective. And the way this country is designed, it has been that something that we as Black people have always had to do. We *have to* understand your world. We have to understand the nuances and whatnot if we are going to succeed. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> It just makes me think as a librarian, and I think especially as a school librarian, I think over the years there\u2019s this narrative. In Vermont there\u2019s a narrative that&#8217;s like, well, most of our students are white, so we don\u2019t have to deal with this. And it makes, it makes you ask the question like <\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">\u201cWhat kind of white people do you want to raise? Like, what kind of white people do you want in the world?&#8221;<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And then also thinking about the many years that teachers, maybe not just teachers but that folks assume that boys won\u2019t read books that have a girl main character, right? Yet we assume girls won\u2019t read books that feature boys all the time. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Then thinking about like the same thing with race, right? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Like with any kind of difference really. We are so used to seeing ourselves centered as white folks that it can be jarring at first when we start reading books that center folks that are different than us. And that\u2019s exactly what we need, right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> When I think about what would be ideal, especially from a woman of color&#8217;s perspective &#8212; which is the only perspective I&#8217;ve had &#8212; it\u2019s my lived experience. I oftentimes think about what an amazing educational system, from a librarian standpoint, it wasn\u2019t: fiction&#8230; and African-American fiction.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Yes! Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong>\u00a0If it wasn\u2019t history&#8230; and African-American history. If it was simply history.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I mean, that\u2019s the world I hope for, which is a hard one to imagine. But I hope that we make these type of realizations, like these conversations between us. Books like <em>Stamped<\/em>. You know things that start to help us. And I mean, that\u2019s the Royal we, right? To help us to understand how upside-down things are, because that\u2019s what I feel like it is. We are upside down. It\u2019s sprinkling and isn\u2019t going to work. We have to go through the work and the hard, agonizing, exhausting almost never-ending work of even starting to turn this, right side up.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> You\u2019re making me think a lot about <a href=\"https:\/\/scenicregional.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/08\/Mirrors-Windows-and-Sliding-Glass-Doors.pdf\">Rudine Sims Bishop<\/a>. And she\u2019s the person who coined this idea of books as Windows, Mirrors and Sliding Doors? This idea about representation. That all kids deserve to see themselves in literature, and that books can also be this window where we can see the lives of others. And then sliding doors where we can find the commonality, right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.slj.com\/?detailStory=an-updated-look-at-diversity-in-childrens-books\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-25656 size-medium\" src=\"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/diversityimagesmall-300x194.jpg\" alt=\"Diversity in Children's Books 2018 infographic from School Library Journal.\" width=\"300\" height=\"194\" srcset=\"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/diversityimagesmall-300x194.jpg 300w, https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/diversityimagesmall-768x497.jpg 768w, https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/04\/diversityimagesmall.jpg 800w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I\u2019m thinking about we use that a lot in literature. We think about that a lot in literature. And I love the idea of using that in history as well. We all deserve to see ourselves *with agency* in history. Not just as victims of history. Some of us get to see ourselves in history that way regularly, right? But like, where do we get to portray folks in\u00a0<\/span><span class=\"s1\">their brilliance and their agency and their power as empowered in history as changemakers, right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You\u2019ve got me really thinking about that. And in science and in all disciplines like, what does that look like? It feels like an important part of that conversation.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Absolutely. I think it, again, as we\u2019ve said before that it makes it accessible and it gives a sort of entry point to have those difficult conversations, you know. And talk about representation where, I had this discussion even at my own school, where, as a person of color, as a Black woman, I see your array of books that\u2019s very diverse on your end and I\u2019m looking and I\u2019m like: <\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">&#8220;Yeah. Why is the only book that has a Black male leader about a gang member who ends up killing two people and dies himself and he&#8217;s ten.\u00a0<\/span><span class=\"s1\">Where is that equivalent in white literature?&#8221;<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Yes, yes, yes.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Where\u2019s your YA book for Jeffrey Dahmer? And it\u2019s a true story by the way up. That book is a true story of a young man. And again: not that it\u2019s not a powerful, wonderful piece of literature to include. But how is that the only representation? What messages are we sending? If I manage to find, a YA whatever. Jeffrey Dahmer, whoever, pick a person, but where the center person was white, troubled, killed people, and then killed himself, and then presenting that? What would that pushback look like? And yet that\u2019s acceptable.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Yes, I completely agree. Not every book about Black folks need to be issue- or social justice-oriented, right? Like sometimes we just want fantasy where the main character is Black, for crying out loud.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Just a story!<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie<\/strong>: I just want a story, yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong>\u00a0I just want a story.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Totally hear that. So, I feel like we should wrap this up and I wanted to end with just a little bit of the Afterward because I think it\u2019s a nice way to close and put a, sort of the book ends on our conversation because we started with the beginning. I\u2019m going to read a little bit of it, and then maybe we can hear some final thoughts.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I love that it ends this way with this sentence. <\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">How do you feel?\u00a0<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0I mean, I hope after reading this not history, history book, you\u2019re left with some answers. I hope it\u2019s clear how the construct of race has always been used to gain and keep power, whether financially or politically, how it is always been used to create dynamics that separate us to keep us quiet, to keep the ball of white and rich privilege rolling. And that it\u2019s not woven into people as much as it\u2019s woven into policy that people adhere to. And believe is truth.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Laws that have kept Black people from freedom, from voting, from education, from insurance, from housing, from government assistance, from healthcare, from shopping, from walking, from driving, from breathing. Laws that treat Black human beings like nothing.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"> I think that was really important for me as a learner to realize that legislation is racist, and creates racist conditions. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I wondered if you had any last thoughts on that or on the book in general.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> I mean, do I have thoughts? Of course. It\u2019s sort of like there\u2019s so much, right to swirl in. I think, and kind of closing and wrapping up our discussion around this book: I want to extend gratitude. Because it takes, the saying is, it takes a village to raise a child. It takes more than a village to push against this enormous beast, if you will, of racism. It takes varied voices, and approaches. And it takes those who have been doing it for a while to be able to step back and take a breath. Because this is hard, exhausting work and have someone else, step in.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">It takes people from all views, approaches, races &#8212; to have a turn in this work. And my gratitude for someone like the authors&#8230; Jason Reynolds, particularly for his young people approach. To take up that mantle and say: hey, you know what? Here\u2019s something we can look at.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And knowing that myself, for instance &#8212; not putting myself on their level &#8212; but, who does the work in a different way has that resource. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">The gratitude of these type of different perspectives that are coming in, that are taking up the mantle that are bringing a fresh approach or, bringing a different group in? That gives me hope. Because there was a time not that long ago, that I was tired. And I was seeing the enormity of this. I had seen the changes that had happened and yet everything still being the same. And got to a point where I\u2019m like: forget it. We\u2019re never going to do this. How are we going to do this? We\u2019re never going to do this.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And thankfully there are those who not only come before us, but also come after us, to say:\u00a0<\/span>It\u2019s okay. It\u2019s all right. You rest. You rest for a bit. I got this. I\u2019m going to bring this book in. And that\u2019s going to allow you to have a second wind.<\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">That\u2019s what it\u2019s going to take. So, I have hope and meeting people like yourself who are asking the questions, at least. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I went through generations of, you wouldn\u2019t even ask the question. People who understand this more that they don\u2019t know then what they know. I think that\u2019s, so important. So, the gratitude for you to be willing to have a conversation with a Black woman on a topic like this. This wouldn\u2019t have happened &#8212; it\u2019s never happened to me i<\/span><span class=\"s1\">f I\u2019m being honest. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I live in a very urban, environment and yet, so, seeing people like you where you\u2019re saying:<\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">&#8220;No, no, \u00a0please help me understand. I know my perspective is limited. I know that I\u2019m going to say this maybe, not in quite the way I mean it, because I have this perspective, please come.&#8221;<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"> That gives me gratitude. Such gratitude.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m so grateful for you for sharing your perspective. Your lived experience, your experience as an educator. Because I think this book is important, because once we know all of the ways in which race is used to uphold power and privilege and economic and political gain for some, and not for others? Then we can do something about it. Until we know, we can\u2019t really do anything about it. So, I\u2019m really grateful to you for taking the time to talk to me about this fabulous book. I can\u2019t wait to hear how teachers start using it and young people to start experiencing it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Absolutely.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong> Thank you so much. Thank you so much for your time, Erika. I\u2019m so grateful.<\/span><span class=\"s1\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><strong>Erika:<\/strong> Thank you. It\u2019s been a pleasure. It really has. And I appreciate it all.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>I&#8217;m Jeanie Phillips, and this is Vermont Ed Reads: books by, for and with Vermont educators. Today we&#8217;re joined by Philadelphia-based educator and &#8220;Learning Maximizer&#8221; Erika Saunders, to talk about the book Stamped: Racism, Anti-Racism, and You, by Jason Reynolds and Ibram X. Kendi. Jeanie: Thank you so much for joining me, Erika. Tell us &hellip; <\/p>\n<p class=\"link-more\"><a href=\"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/vted-reads-stamped-by-jason-reynolds\/\" class=\"more-link\">Continue reading<span class=\"screen-reader-text\"> &#8220;#vted Reads: Stamped, by Jason Reynolds&#8221;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":25575,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1004],"tags":[120,1286,1227,71],"class_list":["post-25469","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-vted-reads","tag-equity","tag-ibram-x-kendi","tag-jason-reynolds","tag-social-justice"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/25469","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=25469"}],"version-history":[{"count":17,"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/25469\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":40981,"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/25469\/revisions\/40981"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/25575"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=25469"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=25469"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=25469"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}