{"id":31002,"date":"2022-03-24T09:45:13","date_gmt":"2022-03-24T13:45:13","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/?p=31002"},"modified":"2024-08-31T09:44:02","modified_gmt":"2024-08-31T13:44:02","slug":"vted-reads-the-other-talk","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/vted-reads-the-other-talk\/","title":{"rendered":"#vted Reads: The Other Talk"},"content":{"rendered":"\r\n\r\n\r\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-31002-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/03\/The-Other-Talk-Christie-Nold.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/03\/The-Other-Talk-Christie-Nold.mp3\">https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/03\/The-Other-Talk-Christie-Nold.mp3<\/a><\/audio>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 In this episode, I sit down with educational phenoms Christie Nold and Jess Lifshitz. \u00a0And we\u2019re joined by Brendan Kiely, Author of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/55710959-the-other-talk?from_search=true&amp;from_srp=true&amp;qid=RQa7JOUXBO&amp;rank=1\">The Other Talk: Reckoning with Our White Privilege.<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"The Other Talk\" width=\"525\" height=\"295\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/jX20wUq1Fhw?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/p>\r\n<p>Now, you might be wondering what The Other Talk actually is.\u00a0 As many of you know, black people and other people of the global majority frequently have to have \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=Mkw1CetjWwI\">The Talk<\/a>\u201d with their children about how to survive when they\u2019re stopped by police in America. \u00a0That\u2019s right, when they\u2019re stopped by police. \u00a0It\u2019s the talk about how to survive that experience. \u00a0Parents often draw the meat of it from their own experiences of brutality and loss. \u00a0But what talk do white people have with their children? \u00a0Lovely listeners, this episode goes out to everyone who believes in young people, as Jess Lifshitz puts it, more than they believe in adults. \u00a0Don\u2019t get us wrong, adults, you are salvageable. \u00a0But boy, there is work to be done. \u00a0I\u2019m Jeanie Phillips, and this is #vted Reads; a podcast about books by, for and with Vermont educators.\u00a0 Let\u2019s talk.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>Thank you so much for joining me, Brendan, Christie, and Jess.\u00a0 Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, I\u2019m honored to have been chosen to go first. \u00a0So well, it\u2019s great to be here. \u00a0Thank you. \u00a0I\u2019m Brendan Kiely, the Author of The Other Talk: Reckoning with Our White Privilege and other novels, including Co-Authoring, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/25657130-all-american-boys?from_search=true&amp;from_srp=true&amp;qid=JZmEqoNCc7&amp;rank=1\">All American Boys<\/a> with Jason Reynolds. \u00a0It\u2019s really great to have an opportunity to talk about issues and ideas and heartfelt feelings that I care deeply about. I hope to ground this conversation as often as possible in the notion of lived experience as opposed to an intellectual exercise about the damage that racism causes in our country. And I say that, because I\u2019ve been thinking a lot about how often I didn\u2019t think about my own lived experience when I was thinking about conversations about race and racism in America. \u00a0So that\u2019s why I\u2019m sharing that.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>I also just have to share, since we\u2019re also talking about books that I\u2019m currently reading is <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/57717410-the-1619-project?from_search=true&amp;from_srp=true&amp;qid=jW8TFom470&amp;rank=1\">The 1619 Project<\/a> and I\u2019m just taking it in chunks at a time and I\u2019m not trying to read it all at once.\u00a0 I\u2019m going in between other reading, as well. \u00a0But it feels like maybe the single most important book to read right now as a grounding point and as a as an effort to say, we all should be reading this.\u00a0 This should be canon in our educational experience. \u00a0And when I\u2019m taking a break from that, I\u2019m reading <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/51009761-love-and-other-poems?from_search=true&amp;from_srp=true&amp;qid=DKBbbg5xzd&amp;rank=2\">Love and Other Poems by Alex Dimitrov<\/a> which is just beautiful.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie<\/strong>:\u00a0 Well, thank you so much for that. \u00a0How about you, Christie?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Christie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Everyone, it is so great to be here and be here with all of you. \u00a0My name is Christie Nold.\u00a0 I use she\/her pronouns and I am zooming in today from Abenaki Land here in Vermont. \u00a0I am a white educator in a predominantly white school that is less than five miles from my childhood home, which is by intention and design. \u00a0And so, I\u2019m excited to be part of this conversation and talk about one of the things that I read in the wonderful book, The Other Talk about what it means to have my whiteness show up with me every day at school.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And what I\u2019m reading right now is from the wonderful Mr. Tom Rad from Twitter, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/57691760-raising-ollie?from_search=true&amp;from_srp=true&amp;qid=1QUDvpdZt4&amp;rank=1\">Raising Ollie: How My Nonbinary Art-Nerd Kid Changed Nearly Everything I Know<\/a>. \u00a0And one of the things that I love so much about this book is that on the face of it, it is the story of this one incredible kid, but in the depth of it really is truly a story about education and who it serves and who it doesn\u2019t and why.\u00a0 I\u2019m really challenged to think differently and deeply by Tom in this text.\u00a0 And it\u2019s pulling at some of my heartstrings around public education, which I so deeply believe in, but what happens when that public education isn\u2019t serving every kid.\u00a0 So, it\u2019s a great book to challenge my thinking and I certainly recommend it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you so much, Christie.\u00a0 Jess?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jess<\/strong>:\u00a0 Hi. \u00a0I\u2019m Jess Lifshitz.\u00a0 I am coming in tonight from near Chicago sitting on Kickapoo, Peoria, and Potawatomi Land. \u00a0I use she\/her pronouns.\u00a0 I teach fifth-grade literacy. \u00a0And then you said, we\u2019re supposed to say who we are and what we do, and my first thought was mostly I\u2019m just trying to survive each day, which I feel like captures a lot of what we\u2019re doing right now.\u00a0 In terms of what I\u2019m reading, just minutes ago, (and this is true, I\u2019m not just trying to suck up), finished <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/57057907-stuntboy-in-the-meantime?from_search=true&amp;from_srp=true&amp;qid=3HCwylLmw3&amp;rank=1\">Stuntboy, in the Meantime<\/a>, written by Jason Reynolds, and illustrated by Raul the Third and it is a beautiful book in all the ways.\u00a0 I just finished it tonight, but I book talked it to my students earlier today. \u00a0And they could not get to it fast enough. \u00a0And if you haven\u2019t read it, I highly recommend it. \u00a0It is beautiful to look at and it is a beautiful story. \u00a0So that is what I just finished.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And then as I\u2019ve been walking to try and deal with the world, I\u2019ve been listening to an audiobook to Clint Smith\u2019s <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/55643287-how-the-word-is-passed?from_search=true&amp;from_srp=true&amp;qid=UGYSdJrIPP&amp;rank=1\">How the Word is Passed<\/a>. \u00a0And I feel similarly to how Brendan was speaking about The 1619 Project, that is how I\u2019m feeling about Clint Smith\u2019s book as well. \u00a0He actually reads the audiobook, and he has such a melodic voice that he\u2019s saying these hugely transformational, powerful things. \u00a0He sang them in this beautiful voice as well. \u00a0And he speaks so much about how education has been used and abused in the past in order to try and \u2013 or attempt to cover up our racist history. \u00a0And it leaves you feeling angry about that, but it also leaves you feeling like then we can use education to do better. \u00a0And so those themes really connected to The Other Talk as well. \u00a0So that is what I\u2019m reading.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I just couldn\u2019t agree more with Jess, with your sentiment about that book and it made me think about how I love that book so much and it\u2019s so reflective as Clint Smith is visiting places. \u00a0And Brendan\u2019s book similarly is so reflective as he revisits his memories. \u00a0And so, the memory I\u2019m going to start with is what you start with at the beginning of the book. \u00a0What\u2019s it like to be friends with Jason Reynolds? \u00a0I mean, I would die to be friends with Jason Reynolds.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, you have to remember too that we became friends before really either one of us had much of a career. \u00a0And it\u2019s a different kind of story to be a part of a process of a career evolving and growing and a person too who evolves into the role that he plays. \u00a0And so, I think it\u2019s so funny. \u00a0I mean, I giggled as you asked the question because I obviously get asked that question all the time. \u00a0And I love it because I love him.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And I\u2019m so grateful that his mother and I swap letters when we are in the same town, we take time so that we\u2019re just ourselves and away from all the public. \u00a0And it feels like exactly what we set out to do when we sat down to write All American Boys. \u00a0We had rules that we came up with. \u00a0And Jason offered the first rule, and I almost want to cry repeating it right now, because he said, \u201cThe first rule has to be the friendship always comes first no matter what happens in the business.\u201d \u00a0And that is true to this day. \u00a0And it\u2019s recently been his birthday, so happy belated birthday man.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I love that.\u00a0 Thank you for fielding that.\u00a0 I needed to start with something a little softer, because the question I had as my first question is not.\u00a0 So, I\u2019m going to throw that out there next.\u00a0 You write about what it means to be white in America and I know that Jess and Christie and I think about that a lot. \u00a0But you have some quotes in here from page 23 said,<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\r\n<p>Living as a white person is white privilege.<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And then a little further on page 27, you say,<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\r\n<p>We, white people are getting away with something that we know is wrong.<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And I was strongly reminded of a <a href=\"https:\/\/www.teachingwhilewhite.org\/podcast\/ywvyf5ocm5oleku1dzp10gxk666nqo\">podcast conversation with Dr. Helms<\/a> on the Teaching While White podcast about white racial identity development. \u00a0So, I went back and listened to that. \u00a0And I\u2019m wondering if \u2013 maybe all three of you but starting with Brendan- could talk a little bit about your own racial identity development and how you came to understand yourself as white.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan:<\/strong>\u00a0 I really appreciate grounding the conversation in this way, because I think people and white people in particular are often afraid to begin to have a conversation about their own, and our own racial identity because it\u2019s so strange. \u00a0It\u2019s not part of the talk that we often have when we talk about racial identity at all. \u00a0And I think that\u2019s part of the problem.\u00a0 It\u2019s been masked in some ways even though the construction of race as we all know is a construction that\u2019s for our benefit as white people.\u00a0 And so it seems so insidious that the motivation for it is so well hidden and the result there is then a kind of invisibility or a disconnect from my own racial identity.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>So, all that\u2019s to say, thinking about my own racial identity, then it comes in moments of shock and shame and guilt and messing up and recognizing, my gosh, this is tied to my racial identity. \u00a0So, for example, shortly after Barack Obama was elected president, I was in a conversation with a group of friends that a house, the room was a multiracial mix of people. \u00a0And in particular, the folks in the room who were black were listening to me speak about how I kept using a phrase like, the poor guy, the poor guy, and not realizing how it landed in the ears of some of the folks who were celebrating Barack Obama, not just for the election and for his policies, but for who he was as a member of a community that they felt a part of.\u00a0 And I went on to claim something to the effect of, well, Barack Obama is more my President, I\u2019m more Barack Obama or something like that than I am George W. Bush or some phrase like that.\u00a0 And not speaking intellectually and not recognizing the difference of lived experience in the room. \u00a0I share that anecdote because that wasn\u2019t all that long ago. \u00a0I mean, now it\u2019s a little bit long ago, but it wasn\u2019t all that long ago. \u00a0And I was a shameful adult to be not being aware of myself in the room in that way.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And I feel like that\u2019s the process from when I was younger that there are moments that I was shocked into some awareness of my white racial identity and that I will be tomorrow and the next day as well. \u00a0And that it\u2019s a road of growth. \u00a0And I\u2019m curious to hear what Christie and Jess have to say, because I\u2019m not in these kinds of conversations often with other white folks, I\u2019m not often into engaging and sharing in this way and I think that\u2019s honestly part of the problem.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Christie:<\/strong> One of the things that I love so much about <a href=\"https:\/\/www.advis.org\/Customized\/Uploads\/ByDate\/2019\/October_2019\/October_15th_2019\/Chandler%20Ward%20-%20Stages%20of%20Racial%20Identity45122.pdf\">Dr. Helms model<\/a> is the way she talks about it as statuses which I feel like I just heard in your anecdote, this idea that it\u2019s not a linear process, but rather these statuses that a person might drop back into.\u00a0 And that leaving one status doesn\u2019t mean you won\u2019t revisit it again later. \u00a0And there\u2019s that first encounter status that status as you described of this idea of shock. \u00a0And this is Christie, by the way.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And one of the things I \u2013 that\u2019s \u2013 it\u2019s being in that status that I think I remember most often.\u00a0 Some of the other statuses aren\u2019t always as clear to me. \u00a0But a moment from that status that I remember fairly clearly is also a more recent moment, after the murder of Trayvon Martin, in which I was reflecting with a white friend about how that could have been one of our students. \u00a0And I was really stuck on this idea of Trayvon and his murder and how just the horrific nature of it all.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And my friend very quickly responded, \u201cIt\u2019s far more likely that we are teaching future Zimmerman\u2019s than teaching a future Trayvon,\u201d given the fact that so many of our students in the district that we were working in together at the time identified as white, identified as students of privilege and although Zimmerman himself doesn\u2019t identify in that way, when thinking about racial violence, so many of the folks who go on to perpetrate that violence are white body people. \u00a0And so it was that moment of transition for me from thinking about these outward facing conversations which I\u2019d been involved in from a very savior narrative place and hadn\u2019t quite realized until that moment switched toward a more inward facing conversation of what does it look like, what would it look like if my work were with and among white folks to disrupt that cycle of violence rather than tending to this idea of savior of potential victory to violence. \u00a0And so, as you were talking, that was the story that was coming to my mind and thinking about my white racial identity and this idea of ideally movement out of or at least certainly recognition of times when I\u2019m sitting within some white savior complex.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jess:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s so interesting, because I was taking notes to get ready tonight. \u00a0And I also identified the moment of Trayvon\u2019s murder as one that was transformational for me. \u00a0And of course, it is hard to admit that it took such a tragic, horrific event to get me to that point.\u00a0 But for me, there was what I remember so vividly was actually hearing black mothers speak about the talk that they gave to their specifically sons is what I remember.\u00a0 And I remember realizing that I didn\u2019t know that.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t know that that talk existed. \u00a0And when I started to unpack that, I realized how very much by design my world was kept very white. \u00a0And not because I have racist parents, I have lovely, wonderful parents who made choices in these racist systems that kept my world so white.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And so, for me, it was a moment that made me realize how many voices my life was lacking. \u00a0And it started me on this sort of journey. \u00a0And where it took me was online to Twitter and allowed me to find the voices that had not been a part of my life. \u00a0And just the \u2013 it\u2019s why I say no one has an excuse to not seek out stories from a wide variety of people any longer, because for as much as \u2013 as problematic as social media is, it also allows us access to all sorts of voices and all sorts of lives. \u00a0And for me, that\u2019s where the journey started is really finding voices like <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/ValeriaBrownEdu\">Val Brown\u2019s<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/SonjaCherryPaul\">Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/debreese\">Dr. Debbie Reese<\/a>.\u00a0 And hearing perspectives that were never given to me in school and that it was by hearing how my whiteness and the whiteness of others impacted people\u2019s lives. \u00a0That\u2019s what started my own racial identity and understanding, because you\u2019re right, we don\u2019t have these conversations.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And the last thing I\u2019ll say is I often share this story that when I do identity webs with my students, and my students, I teach in a district that is mostly white, high socioeconomic status. \u00a0And so, when we start unpacking identity, it\u2019s often the first time my fifth graders have had these types of conversations. \u00a0And I begin by sharing my identity with them. \u00a0And I put on there that I\u2019m a lesbian and at this point, no reaction.\u00a0 It\u2019s sort of like, yeah, okay, no big deal. \u00a0I then say that I\u2019m white.\u00a0 And there is this audible gasp and you\u2019re like, really, that\u2019s what you\u2019re surprised by that you didn\u2019t know. \u00a0But they had \u2013 they are so not used to hearing people name, race as a facet of identity. \u00a0It\u2019s like if we can\u2019t even name it without gasping, how can we start to really understand how our whiteness is impacting others? \u00a0And so, we use that, right?\u00a0 We unpack that. \u00a0Why are you gasping? \u00a0What did I just say? \u00a0How are you feeling? \u00a0And why are you feeling that way? \u00a0And it\u2019s really a powerful moment. \u00a0So, to watch young people start to wrestle with that is a powerful thing.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Brendan, did you want to say something?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan:<\/strong>\u00a0 I was just responding to Jess\u2019s comments, because there are so many moments where, whether it\u2019s Jason and I presenting together or I\u2019m presenting on my own and I\u2019m telling a story and I launch into the phrase, \u201cWhite Boy\u201d, that is the moment of gasp in a predominantly white auditorium. \u00a0Sometimes if it\u2019s not a predominantly white, and it\u2019s predominantly non-white, it\u2019s more of sometimes chuckle, sometimes something else. \u00a0But its recognition, because of course, like that naming and knowing and witnessing my whiteness is so common for people who are not white. \u00a0And I appreciate your use of the word impact a number of times, because I think for me also part of the thinking about my white racial identity is a question of accountability, because my racial identity by default affects other people\u2019s lives. \u00a0And so, I just appreciate what you both were saying and forgive me sweeping back in there, but it was just so visceral, it\u2019s so real. \u00a0I feel that too.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, and it\u2019s a perfect segue to my next question which is that I probably like many people listening grew up \u2013 many white people listening grew up as a white person with a sense that being not racist meant that you didn\u2019t talk about race and you wouldn\u2019t say that race didn\u2019t matter, right?\u00a0 And I no longer believe that. \u00a0But it\u2019s still really common when I was in a school library to hear kids say things that I still found in your book over and over again. \u00a0And so, I appreciated that your book, one of the many things I appreciate it is that it forces us to focus on reality that the way that race matters in our world. \u00a0And you invite us as white folks to be reflective about our own experiences through a lens of race in a way that I think we\u2019re not accustomed to. \u00a0And I wondered if you might read a little bit starting on page 34. \u00a0Do you have a copy of the book with you, Brendan?\u00a0 Do you have a copy of your own book?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, I do.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019m looking down\u2026<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan:<\/strong>\u00a0 I have too many copies.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019m looking down at the second paragraph to the bottom. \u00a0And it starts, \u201cBut one thing I do know for sure is that.\u201d \u00a0And I wondered if you could read up to the end of that little section on the top of page 35.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan:<\/strong> \u201c<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\r\n<p>But one thing I do know for sure is that I have to tell all my stories now more truthfully&#8211; by always including my whiteness and asking how it plays a role.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And I get it, it can feel weird&#8211; really weird. Hard, maybe. It can even hurt. \u00a0But even if it hurts a little&#8230; yup, we still have to give it a try. \u00a0We still have to go there.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And just to be clear: talking about being white, talking about white privilege, isn\u2019t <em>anti<\/em>-white. \u00a0It\u2019s just being honest. \u00a0If I\u2019m honest with myself&#8211; about being white&#8211; I can learn; I can grow. I can do better.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>Because that\u2019s what I want to do: do better.<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I really appreciate that framing. \u00a0And I wonder if we could talk a little bit about what your hopes are for when kids are reading this book.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan<\/strong>:\u00a0 I\u2019d be curious actually to throw that to Jess and Christie if you don\u2019t mind, because you\u2019re in a position to be with those young folks more immediately than I am.\u00a0 And I\u2019m envious of your situation, I used to teach, and I no longer do, and I missed the classroom.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Christie:<\/strong> One of the things that I have actually been wondering about gets back to this question of audience. \u00a0I was curious as you were writing who you might have had in mind.\u00a0 And I went back and forth around this. \u00a0One of the things that was on my mind was this line that I got from Dr. Leilani Sabzalian who in talking about indigenous communities, she names this idea of outward facing work, that is the amount of time and energy that indigenous folks and researchers have to spend convincing people outside of community that there is a problem and that their lives and experiences matter. \u00a0And she describes the way in which so much effort and energy goes into proving or providing evidence that there\u2019s little energy left for the inward facing toward community love and celebration.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And I found in your text lots of moments where it was and here\u2019s the evidence, let me show you the evidence, here\u2019s the overwhelming evidence. \u00a0And so, I went back and forth in my own mind between are you writing for for young people, for young white people potentially who already see and might understand their whiteness and might understand race as a social construct?\u00a0 Or were you writing for a white student who might be rejecting that and are providing evidence? \u00a0Or are you hoping that this book becomes an umbrella that could hold both of those students within it? \u00a0And so, I\u2019m going to toss your question right back potentially, because when I sat with your text, I kept thinking in my head, this is the perfect book for X student. \u00a0And then I\u2019d read a little further and think no, no, no, this is the perfect book for YA students. \u00a0And so, in my mind, this whole time has been this question around who you imagined picking up this text and engaging with it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan:<\/strong>\u00a0 Jess, do you have anything you want to add before I respond?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jess:<\/strong> No, go ahead.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan:<\/strong> \u00a0Okay. \u00a0I appreciate that. \u00a0I\u2019m often a fan of switching from either or to both and I am going to do that again here and I\u2019m going to go even further, because the idea \u2013 I hope the book works as a kind of not unlike how with our \u2013 we were talking about the statuses and how you can move in and out in \u2013 when you\u2019re grappling with your white racial identity as a white person.\u00a0 I think that there are times in which no matter how much you already have an instinct for or an understanding of the impact of white privilege and the world around you, evidence is helpful sometimes even just to arm yourself in conversation with others. \u00a0And so, I personally found that I wanted to accrue that kind of evidence in a way that wasn\u2019t just assumed but was concrete in a way that if I were talking to family members as I do every Thanksgiving.\u00a0 I would have some concretes as opposed to just emotional outbursts, which is usually where it starts and ends.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>In addition, I think there\u2019s also a kind of moments where people who are just being introduced to it can access it through emotion. \u00a0And so it isn\u2019t about evidence, as much as it\u2019s about anecdotal stories and here\u2019s me messing up, maybe you have had a similar situation.\u00a0 And it doesn\u2019t make us horrible people, it makes us worse people if we know it and then don\u2019t reflect on it and don\u2019t try to do anything about it and not make the mistake again. \u00a0But it doesn\u2019t make us horrible people to not know and make mistakes and not knowing it\u2019s the then knowing that\u2019s important, I think.\u00a0 And how we \u2013 Jess, as you mentioned before too, begin to seek out the wisdom of others in a way that we may not have had before. And so for me, I\u2019m hoping that the book works in that kind of push and pull and back and forth. \u00a0And there are some moments of the book that would work for this particular white student and other moments that would work for another white student.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>Now, I clarify that by saying these different white students, because, yes, primarily, it\u2019s a book for an assumed white audience in the same way that the talk that we referenced earlier, the talk that Jason\u2019s mother gave Jason was not even assumed, it was directly a conversation about black identity and interactions with law enforcement. \u00a0But also, that talk expanded, right, it\u2019s not just about law enforcement, it\u2019s about his existence in a day-to-day world.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And so, while I primarily am trying to do something similar for white students and white families, I also hope that on some level it can also be a book that for readers who are not white like me and my family, there it can be an opportunity to say, this is someone who has listened to that thing that I said, this is a moment of somebody who has heard.\u00a0 As some of my friends and I have discussed, when you hear the call to action, do you just keep it inside or do you do something about it? \u00a0And so, for example, in conversation with Renee Watson, she and I have talked about this quite a bit that that call to action demand some public action and acknowledgement of having heard it. \u00a0And so, my hope is that the book also offers that opportunity for non-white readers as well. \u00a0That\u2019s a leap. \u00a0That\u2019s a leap I understand. \u00a0And again, primarily, the book is to open up those conversations with white readers. \u00a0So, I hope that answers your question, because I think the initial question and the compounding more complicated follow up to it, I love, so thanks.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you for that, Christie, thank you for deepening the question. \u00a0And now, I\u2019m going to lob it to Jess and ask, what are your hopes for kids who read this book?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jess:<\/strong> I will be honest that it is hard to find hope these days in the educational space, I think just in the universe space. \u00a0This book made me hopeful. \u00a0And I don\u2019t say that because the author is sitting right here, I mean, many miles away, but via Zoom. \u00a0And I had a very emotional response to the section that you just read. \u00a0And I think the part that I responded to is this trust you have in young people and the whole book read that way that you trust that young people can handle discomfort. \u00a0And so much of the pushback that we\u2019re hearing from white folks right now is this need to protect comfort and it\u2019s connected to so many things, right, mask wearing, the teaching of accurate history, all of those things.\u00a0 And it\u2019s \u2013 this needs to protect comfort.\u00a0 And what you start to wrestle with in the part you just read is this idea that it\u2019s okay to feel discomfort, especially when that discomfort comes from a reckoning, an awakening, a recognition of the fact that you were born into a system that you have benefited from.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And I often think about how all those folks who are screaming about protecting kids from discomfort maybe have never had the privilege of witnessing children when they start to finally understand what\u2019s been hidden from them, right.\u00a0 When \u2013 as a fifth-grade teacher, I have watched as children for the first time recognize the privilege.\u00a0 When they recognize they\u2019re not lucky, they\u2019re benefiting from a system that was designed to operate.\u00a0 So, it benefited them while taking away from others. \u00a0And it is empowering.\u00a0 Kids are empowered, because once they recognize they\u2019re part of a system, they realize they can change it, they can work to change it, that they\u2019re not these helpless bystanders.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>The discomfort comes when they realize all the adults around them have been keeping the truth from them, because they wouldn\u2019t say it\u2019s because they don\u2019t trust them to deal with it, right.\u00a0 I like to think it comes from a place of love and desiring to protect your own child. \u00a0But when there is a righteous anger that comes when kids start to see the truth and then that anger is often followed by this empowered feeling of, okay, so you\u2019re telling me that this is the way things are, let\u2019s figure out how we can change it. \u00a0And I think so much of this book speaks to that that constant refrain of you have to understand it so that you can understand how to make it better. \u00a0And that makes me hopeful, because I believe in young people way more than I believe in adults these days. \u00a0And this idea that if we can help them understand things, they want to change them and I believe they will, because certainly no one taught me these things as I was growing up.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>So, what do I hope for kids? \u00a0I don\u2019t know that my fifth graders are ready to tackle the book themselves. \u00a0But I hope that the adults around them read it. \u00a0And I hope it inspires them to trust children. \u00a0And I think there are certainly pieces of it we can dig into together. \u00a0But my hope for kids is that they have adults around them who trust them the way Brendan has trusted his audience in the book. \u00a0So, it left me very hopeful. \u00a0That\u2019s my long answer.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, I really appreciate that, because there are so many more anecdotes that I can share about young people that I\u2019ve met all across the country, whether it\u2019s in Anchorage, Alaska, or parts of Florida, or other students \u2013 the students that I met in Baton Rouge, or whatever the case may be who have that instinct for, what do we need to know so that we can do better.\u00a0 And that they\u2019re kind of hungry for that which has been hidden from them or any access to more information.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>I mean, this might sound odd, but I feel like the same instinct for one\u2019s want to belief in a kind of \u2013 in magic as a young person, right, is a search for a kind of truth, is a search for something out there that can provide solutions to the problems that I feel all the time around me. \u00a0And what feels really negligent on the part of adults in our country right now is to deny kids access to the very tools that \u2013 and information that can help lead to that fairer society. \u00a0So, I\u2019m with you 100%. \u00a0Let\u2019s trust them. \u00a0I don\u2019t see another way out. \u00a0I mean, there was that \u2013 I don\u2019t know if you saw that article in the Washington Post last summer that was about all the hubbub in Traverse City, Michigan. \u00a0And The New York Times interviewer interviewed a second grader and the second-grader who was white was grappling with what she had learned about racism.\u00a0 And she said, \u201cAlthough it hurt to hear about it and learn about it, it made me want to learn more so that I could do more.\u201d \u00a0If a second grader can do this, then God, can\u2019t we as old broken people, I guess?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jess:<\/strong> I actually, really appreciate that you say there were so many more anecdotes of children taking action or young people taking action that you wanted to put in. \u00a0I actually so appreciated that the action chapter didn\u2019t come until the very end. \u00a0I think it was maybe chapter 20, because I think the mistake so many white adults make is that rush into the action. \u00a0I think we saw that.\u00a0 I think this extreme pendulum from the summer of 2020 to the summer of 2021 with evidence of the danger of white folks rushing to action to check it off a checklist.\u00a0 Well, what do we do? \u00a0How do we fix it? \u00a0Without doing all the understanding first and that the action comes from understanding.\u00a0 And I felt like your book, the way it was structured, I actually really appreciated that the action didn\u2019t come until much later on. \u00a0And yes, I think you could fill many volumes of the beautiful actions young people did.\u00a0 But the power of the book was really \u2013 well, let\u2019s get to the understanding that leads to that action.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan:<\/strong>\u00a0 I really appreciate that, because that was the point.\u00a0 And to undergird all action with four chapters of listening first, because the listening is, I think, an action. \u00a0And it\u2019s the action that at least folks like me need to do a lot more before I engage in any other of that public action after I\u2019ve heard that call to action. \u00a0But speaking of listening, Jeanie, I see you hovering by the microphone.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right, totally hovering. \u00a0Before you get to listening, though, you do this really important paradigm shift. \u00a0And I actually took pictures of these pages and the cover and sent it to my friend <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/LearninPerson\">Erika Saunders<\/a>, because she\u2019s the person who said to me, \u201cYou know, white privilege is a rather sanitizing phrase.\u00a0 It covers up all sorts of evils.\u201d \u00a0And then you really articulate it really well. \u00a0And I\u2019m going to read from page 60.\u00a0 I\u2019m going to read this time, because I\u2019m a librarian and I love that.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\r\n<p>When I was growing up, I was taught that racism <em>denies<\/em>.\u00a0 It denies people their voting rights, their access to more valuable housing, their ability to compete for higher-paying jobs. \u00a0The list of things racism denied was long&#8211; it is long.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>But I never looked at it the other way around&#8211; I was never taught to look at it like this: if racism <em>disadvantages<\/em> some people, then it also <em>advantages<\/em> others. Think about it:<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>If one person is <em>denied<\/em> more valuable housing, another person <em>gets<\/em> it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>If one person is denied a higher paying job, someone else gets it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And if you deny one person something, you\u2019re giving the <em>advantage<\/em> to another person. Or <em>privileges<\/em>, right. \u00a0And with racism, the denials give those advantages to&#8211; you guessed it&#8211; white people. \u00a0So, the privileges go to white people&#8230; and we are right back to<em> white privilege<\/em>.<\/p>\r\n<\/blockquote>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And I think that\u2019s really important given what Jess said, is that we talk about racism in this generic way. \u00a0But we never talk about how it impacts us as white folks, how we are complicit with it. \u00a0And I really appreciated that you shift that paradigm. \u00a0And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about that comes really early in the book, before the listening, way before the action and I wondered if we could talk about that as a group a little bit.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, I really appreciate that, because I grappled with the term white privilege in and of itself, because I often think that it sanitizes the extreme horrors of white supremacy and a culture that is so good at making its white supremacy, because that is imbedded, encoded into our legal system from the inception of our Constitution. \u00a0And so, I grappled with using that term, because I think it\u2019s important to name white supremacy. \u00a0And because I want the book to be an invitation for folks who may be wrestling with it, I was consciously making a choice to use a term that I felt like was more widely understood and even if it\u2019s challenged or whatever it might be, it might not feel as threatening as naming it as white supremacy. \u00a0And I have heard criticism about that. \u00a0And I really hear it and take it to heart, but I made the choice that I wanted to share that with you all to see what you think too.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>But I also wanted to think about it in a way where you could talk about advantages as privileges, because I also want to use the term privilege that white folks who are not economically advantaged often, they\u2019d rub-up against that word privilege and they say, well, I\u2019m not privileged. \u00a0But I wanted to talk about what social privilege looks like that has nothing to do with economics. \u00a0And so, I felt like it was a term that I could go in both directions with it in a way that \u2013 and talk about it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And as I mentioned in the book, I wanted to use the phrase from Claudia Rankine, like, it\u2019s just white living, it\u2019s living as a white person. \u00a0And in earlier drafts that actually littered the text a lot more, but it became pretty redundant, and you have to cut some things.\u00a0 But I\u2019m curious.\u00a0 I\u2019m curious what everybody else thinks about that. \u00a0I really appreciate this question. \u00a0So, I\u2019m curious to hear your thoughts.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Christie:<\/strong>\u00a0 One of the things that I\u2019m thinking about goes back to that idea or question of audience and what it means to provide an onramp for folks who are entering into conversation. And a good friend and mentor of mine, <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/paulsyoon\">Paul Yoon<\/a>, talks about this metaphor of a flower opening or closing. \u00a0And in his work, he talks about the need to allow for that opening in order for anything to penetrate and get through. \u00a0And that, even in moments where he wants to be brutally honest and use language in its most precise form, he\u2019s recognized that if that same language closes a person off from being able to hear that important message, then he\u2019s lost his potential for that audience. \u00a0And so, it\u2019s tricky, because in your book, you do such a beautiful job talking about how language impacts our ideas, impacts our behaviors, impacts how we move through the world as white folks and so there is this desire or need for precision of language and there is the desire or need for onramps.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And I think that in some ways, the older the person the more gradual the onramp has been, in my experience, the more gradual that onramp is needed. \u00a0So, when I think about, for example, my previous work mainly with sixth-graders, their walls of white supremacist construction were still really porous.\u00a0 They hadn\u2019t solidified yet. \u00a0And so, it was easier to penetrate through, because they didn\u2019t have this sense of unlearning that my graduate students who are teachers needed to do when confronted with the exact same material. \u00a0And so, when confronted with this idea of race as a social construct, my sixth graders were like, \u201cCool, it\u2019s like gender. Moving on.\u201d \u00a0My graduate students were like, \u201cWait, biology, phenotype, what?\u201d And so, it just makes me think about for your text that the onramp that I want to offer and provide for folks, I \u2013 in some ways, I wanted this text to be in the hands of adults more than young people, because I almost think that young people in that I\u2019ve encountered could handle a more brutal onramp.\u00a0 I think you offer a really kind, compassionate and thoughtful onramp for folks. \u00a0So, it makes me think about <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/57410188-start-here-start-now?ac=1&amp;from_search=true&amp;qid=VhoWzeuWLi&amp;rank=1\">Liz Kleinrock\u2019s Start Here, Start Now<\/a> and how clear in her author\u2019s note she was about that text offering onramps for educators who are coming into the work.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And I do feel that that has been missing a bit from what\u2019s available to folks.\u00a0 I see a lot of 201, 301, 401 type of texts, I don\u2019t see as many 101 texts that are honest and authentic, and that I feel comfortable putting in people\u2019s hands. \u00a0And I think this to me was that beautiful onramp that folks can take into the conversation to then continue through.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jess:<\/strong>\u00a0 That I agree with Christie.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan:<\/strong>\u00a0 It connects us everything you said earlier though to Jess when you were talking about teachers and we were talking about the audience for the book, as you were saying Christie.\u00a0 And honestly, one of my hopes is that it\u2019s really read by a lot of teachers. \u00a0That\u2019s exactly what I mean it\u2019s a book that\u2019s published, it\u2019s a YA book. But the hope is that it\u2019s read by the people who work supposedly for and serve young folks the most.\u00a0 And it\u2019s interesting, because I like the term onramps and I like the idea of that flower opening, I think that\u2019s a beautiful image and I hadn\u2019t heard that before and I really appreciate that.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And I\u2019m thinking about a white boy that I met in Orlando, Florida who after reading All American Boys was grappling with the stories that his family had told about his white grandfather who was a cop in the Bronx, in the 1970s. \u00a0And if \u2013 even for him, I think, if I had been too precise or the novel had been too precise or in the presentation at the school had been too precise, it may have closed down an opportunity for him to arrive at the \u2013 at what he shared with me after the presentation, which was, why can\u2019t two things be true?\u00a0 Meaning, my family says we have to talk only about him being a hero, only he\u2019s a hero, he\u2019s a hero, he\u2019s a hero. \u00a0What if he was a hero for some and not for others, and possibly was the villain in other people\u2019s stories? \u00a0Can\u2019t he be both?\u00a0 And that\u2019s a 17-year-old boy who was grappling with just the real complexities of life.\u00a0 And I feel like if you create onramps and not to say, and you should be ashamed, and you should be \u2013 you should feel guilty and you should feel horrible and you should stop talking to your family, like that doesn\u2019t get us anywhere when he can now be a more active member and maybe over dinner conversation can help complicate that story in a loving way with more family. \u00a0And I think that\u2019s the hope is that that\u2019s to me what the other talk is about.\u00a0 It\u2019s about creating the expansive sense of what that white racial identity is and how it\u2019s impacted the lives of people in our communities, but also ourselves in our families. \u00a0So, I really appreciate that so much.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Christie:<\/strong>\u00a0 One of the things you have me thinking about is a recent interview with <a href=\"https:\/\/www.clintsmithiii.com\/\">Clint Smith<\/a> to get back to Jess\u2019s comment about his text earlier.\u00a0 He talks about this idea of white folks using history as a kind of family heirloom and that when history becomes an heirloom, this thing that\u2019s passed down and is untouchable, the harm that can come from that. \u00a0And what I\u2019m also reflecting on as your speaking gets back to the initial question around white folks speaking with other white folks, I don\u2019t expect my friends of the global majority to have the patience that offering an onramp might require.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>I am at no time and I see like lots of nods in the Zoom conversation that the listeners can\u2019t see of like that particular role that I believe white folks can play in the intra-racial, right, those conversations among white people to offer the grace, the patience to sit together in that shame, in that guilt, in those different statuses and not ask that that sitting with happen, the part of our friends who are black, brown, indigenous folks of color, both in the U.S. and abroad, because I understand that that in that on ramping a lot of harm and messiness can take place and happen. \u00a0And it\u2019s my hope that young people in particular, young white people who are grappling with this and developing their own racial identity are met by a compassionate elder in the work or compassionate young peer who can sit together with them through that messiness and keep them going up that onramp and keep them in the work.\u00a0 And again I don\u2019t hold that expectation of any friends of the global majority. \u00a0But I do hope for other white folks listening who might have read the book and be in that place of like, what do I do, I want to do something.\u00a0 That can I think be a really concrete place to put some time and energy is sitting together with white peers, white colleagues, with young white people in that kind of learning, unlearning messiness of the onramp.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 And I think that that is especially true of white educators in this moment, in this political climate, in this moment we are living in, because I will tell you, it \u2013 there have been moments this school year where it has seemed like the work has become impossible.\u00a0 And when I say the work, I mean the antiracist work.\u00a0 That is how do we move forward? \u00a0How do we move forward when we are under attack with very little support from so many places that have power and privilege and could be supportive? \u00a0And what I come back to is the words of I know one of Christie\u2019s heroes and many people\u2019s <a href=\"https:\/\/soe.umich.edu\/directory\/faculty-staff\/carla-shalaby\">Carla Shalaby<\/a>, who talks about the power of collective resistance. \u00a0It used to feel like enough to go in my classroom and close my door and do my antiracist teaching and feel good about it. \u00a0And it\u2019s no longer working, because one, it\u2019s no longer safe in multiple ways even with all the privilege I as a white educator am wrapped in, it\u2019s no longer safe. And two, it\u2019s not changing the system. \u00a0So, then it starts to feel impossible when we get to that handwringing stage which I don\u2019t like.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And I come back to that\u2019s why we keep talking to other white educators, because the way to move forward is to do it collectively, right, to join forces and to stand alongside BIPOC educators who have been doing the work and shouldering such a different heavy burden. \u00a0And then as a white educator, what can I do, like Christie said, I can keep talking about it. \u00a0And I somewhere wrote down what Brendan said too, that idea of start having these conversations about white privilege and racism all the time, right, be that annoying hand raiser in a staff meeting, keep bringing it up, keep pointing out the problems, keep suggesting a better way, keep sharing the work that students are capable of, because we have to get other white folks to join us. \u00a0It no longer feels like enough to me to just go in my classroom and close the door. \u00a0I have to bring folks, and when I say folks, I mean white folks into the work with me. \u00a0And then collectively we push on admin, we push on school boards to vocally and visibly support us, because that\u2019s how we move forward, right, that\u2019s how we do the work. So, I don\u2019t remember what question I was answering, but\u2026<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>I just got to \u2013 sorry. I know I said you all should do all the talking. \u00a0But there are a couple things that are like really bubbling for me. \u00a0And one is Brendan brought up this holding of this kid holding like the hero and the can-do bad things. \u00a0And I was thinking in your book, especially in chapter six, you really explored the paradox of race that it scientifically doesn\u2019t exist, but that socially it does and has huge impact, right? \u00a0And so, in a way that kid \u2013 that 17-year-old kid is able to like hold paradox. \u00a0And this book really asked kids to hold paradox. \u00a0So that\u2019s one thing.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And then I\u2019m thinking just about what you just said and feeling, like, and I am so guilty of this- about the problem with politeness. \u00a0How often as white folks we defer to politeness instead of standing up and saying, hold on, wait a minute?\u00a0 And Brendan, you give a really great example in your book of that inaction.\u00a0 And how much it takes for us as white folks to stand up and say, what you\u2019re doing right now is racist, like, because we\u2019re so worried about politeness that we forget that they\u2019re harming people in our midst. \u00a0And who are we protecting with that politeness?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And then the third thing, and then I\u2019m going to shut up and let you all say your brilliant words, because they bubble up in such interesting ways. \u00a0And thinking about this book is such that your onramp really to borrow Christie\u2019s words, your onramp is your humility in sharing your own stories from your youth, again, and from your adulthood, frankly, again and again and being willing to say, my God.\u00a0 Like, to put yourself out there in this vulnerable way and notice how race and racism shows up in your own life. \u00a0And I just have such big appreciation for that, and whether it\u2019s about politeness or about the dawning of paradox, or about just your own experience, I just so appreciated that. \u00a0I don\u2019t have a question. \u00a0I\u2019m just going to open the floor and mute myself again.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Christie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019m trying to remember who I first heard the phrase \u2018creative noncompliance\u2019 from, but that is also really coming to mind for me, this idea of the many subversive ways that educators can continue in this moment and within the system. \u00a0And so, it calls to mind. \u00a0I think one of the sections of the book that stood out to me most was that moment, because I think I recognize myself in it the most, was that moment at the white privilege conference.\u00a0 When asked to \u201cStand in solidarity by leaving,\u201d this decision made by a white participant about what this indigenous woman might need or want in that moment. \u00a0And then to have that woman say, like, \u201cNo stay, I want you to stay. \u00a0This is what you meaning white people always do, you get up and leave.\u201d \u00a0And it makes me think about something that \u2013 and again, I\u2019m trying to call to mind, this comes from another person, this idea that if you \u2013 if a person were to walk away from whiteness in one situation, you\u2019re likely to just run into it in the next that there isn\u2019t a walking away from whiteness and yet that is in so many ways what white folks keep doing.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And so, one of the things that I hear from educators who are now (white educators in particular) being confronted with this idea of bans on critical race theory is like, well, I\u2019ll just leave. \u00a0And I want to invite white educators who are sitting with that, I\u2019ll just leave sentiment to consider what it looks like to stay in the same way that the woman asked you to stay in that moment. \u00a0What does it look like to be in this moment to be subversive to take a risk by teaching what necessarily needs to be taught to our young people?\u00a0 And I want to be really clear here.\u00a0 I\u2019m not asking educators to stay in toxic environments that are actually dangerous to them, and to their health and wellbeing. \u00a0But what I am asking is in particular for white educators who have privileges within this system, as much as possible to stay and make it better if you\u2019re able.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And again, for folks who are stepping away for reasons of personal health, for reasons of family health, for reasons of wellbeing, for reasons that their school or their environment is too toxic, yes, do those things. \u00a0And also, if the reason a person is stepping away is to say the system is too white, and the person stepping away is also white, again, I just want to invite a pause before fully pulling away and a request to really look around and consider that perhaps it is in that place that you can do the most work. \u00a0And perhaps that place really needs you.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s okay to call each other in or call each other towards our better selves. \u00a0And in fact, a lot of the smart people in our lives who can do that, and we shouldn\u2019t expect people of the global majority our friends who are not white to do that for us.\u00a0 But we can lean on each other as white folks to pull us into that place we want to be when we slide and slip and slide in our own indoctrination in white supremacy, because we both got that, right?\u00a0 So, I just wanted to pull out that phrase, loving accountability.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And then I am one of those people who early on in the \u2013 what I\u2019m going to call the critical race theory whiplash would say, my goodness, come on, schools aren\u2019t teaching critical race theory. \u00a0I\u2019m learning about critical race theory in my doc program. \u00a0That\u2019s not what schools are teaching. \u00a0Now, I\u2019ve been rethinking that a little bit, because one, I think it\u2019s not very helpful and, two, because it isn\u2019t really accurate. \u00a0And so it may be that schools are not teaching critical race theory. \u00a0But while reading your book, I was really seeing what schools are teaching is what critical race theory helps us see, which is the ways in which racism is systemic or you used on page 66, the word systematized.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And so, I really appreciated the way you pulled out historical outlines, legal outcomes, your grandfather, I felt a real kinship to that, that\u2019s my own working class grandfather\u2019s story and his benefits from being in World War II. \u00a0And you sort of lay out the way in which just like critical race theory would that the nature of racism in this country isn\u2019t about a few bad apples, a few individuals who feel icky things.\u00a0 It\u2019s really about legal precedent and systems at work to produce the outcomes that are racist.\u00a0 And I guess that\u2019s what antiracist teachers are doing, right? \u00a0They\u2019re teaching accurate history that demonstrates the systemic nature of racism.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And so, I wanted to talk a little bit more than Christie just did about how teachers might continue to do this really important work while preparing themselves for challenges from \u2013 in Vermont, what\u2019s happening is anti-CRT folks are calling in to school board meetings on Zoom from like states in the West, right, like \u2013 so how can we prepare ourselves for what\u2019s going to happen? \u00a0What we know is going to happen, because when you disrupt inequitable systems, people are going to push back.\u00a0 What might we do so that we\u2019re ready for that? \u00a0And Jess, I\u2019m going to invite you to speak first.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jess:<\/strong>\u00a0 Me?\u00a0 So, I think I said most of what I have to say about this earlier on that I don\u2019t have a good, easy answer.\u00a0 And I think the truth is, I think sometimes educators do need permission to know that sometimes it is too much and there is a threat.\u00a0 And it is unsafe.\u00a0 And listen to that too, because I think part of why we need to rethink saying, well, schools aren\u2019t teaching CRT is that it\u2019s really dismissive, because it\u2019s so beside the point.\u00a0 Nobody cares really if we\u2019re teaching CRT or not.\u00a0 That was never the point, right?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>So, I think we were also unprepared for that argument that we were like that was our first response, like, what you\u2019re talking about?\u00a0 That\u2019s \u2013 I don\u2019t even know what that is.\u00a0 I\u2019m not doing that.\u00a0 But again, that doesn\u2019t matter, because it\u2019s again that desire to protect, protect your children, protect their comfort, but also protect the systems you\u2019ve benefited from.\u00a0 And so, I do want to say that I think sometimes it isn\u2019t safe and to know that and trust that too.\u00a0 And then we build that collective resistance.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And I will also say this: before I dig in with my students to any conversations about racism or racist systems, we first celebrate the heck out of identity, and we celebrate who we all are as individuals and facets of identity, and we talk about the many parts of us.\u00a0 And we celebrate so much, because that means more than hanging a rainbow flag on my wall, right?\u00a0 That doesn\u2019t create a safe space.\u00a0 What creates a safe space is naming identities. Being able to give space to conversations about all pieces of identity, modeling my own identity and talking about it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And then once we celebrate identity, then we built on that foundation, because we have these sturdy legs to stand on them, right? \u00a0And then we move into how does our identity impact how we move through the world?\u00a0 And I make it so clear that there are some parts of our identity that in some situations make it harder for us to move through the world. \u00a0But that\u2019s not because something is wrong with who you are, it\u2019s because something is wrong with this world, right?\u00a0 So, I\u2019m not saying that protects us. \u00a0But I think it\u2019s sort of contextualizes teaching about systems, because we look at it through a lens of who we are impacts how we move through the world, right?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And so, again, that\u2019s not some magic solution, but it can help when we start there, it becomes a little bit more just what we do here, right?\u00a0 We just celebrate who we are and we are honest about who we are. It sometimes makes things easier and sometimes makes things harder and we\u2019re going to look at all of that together and there\u2019s space for all of that together here. \u00a0So, it can be kind of a good place to go to when it\u2019s starting to feel like, there is nothing I can say that\u2019s going to not be attacked. \u00a0And certainly, there will be people who attack but it can kind of cushion some of that.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Christie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think, to what both of you are saying, I think one of the great lies that has been perpetuated is this idea that it\u2019s deeply rooted in shame and guilt. \u00a0And although there are places in the statuses that one can point to in which a person might be feeling shame and guilt. \u00a0And also, I want a name that I can\u2019t control how the curriculum I teach in my classroom lands on my students. \u00a0And so, I aim for joy, I aim for opportunities, for lightness, for those breathing moments. \u00a0And also, I know that the same lesson can strike five students in five entirely different ways. \u00a0And I don\u2019t want to pretend to control for that. \u00a0But I do want to offer that I am willing to sit with any student and the authentic reactions that they\u2019re having to what I\u2019m teaching.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And I want to name that in their really beautiful text <a href=\"https:\/\/www.goodreads.com\/book\/show\/29429650-radical-dharma?ac=1&amp;from_search=true&amp;qid=LwNck4ewij&amp;rank=1\">Radical Dharma<\/a> which has been foundational to my own understanding. \u00a0I just love the way in which Lama Rod Owens and Angel Kyodo Williams talks about the harms of white supremacy to all people across racial identity and society. \u00a0And they name really beautifully that white supremacy harms all of us. \u00a0It harms people at different rates and in different ways. \u00a0So, I don\u2019t want to pretend that the harms of white supremacy that I\u2019ve experienced in my white body are the same harms of white supremacy that friends of the global majority experience. \u00a0But I do want to name that I think there are opportunities and ways in which when white supremacy is named, and the harm of it is named that white students, young white people, white professionals, academics, educators, all of us can name the way that this has harmed us too, has harmed our relationship, has fractured relationship, both with people of the global majority and with one another, has harmed our familial lineages in the way in which our families have broken from their ancestry in order to meld itself into this project of whiteness that exists here in the United States.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p>And I think that there is a real beauty and and joy that can come in naming this universal harm that folks have experienced through this project of white supremacy. \u00a0That is to say that critical race theory and this teaching is about restoring and repairing from that harm and moving toward a place of healing. \u00a0And as they name in their text, a place of true collective liberation in which it\u2019s about all of us in solidarity moving away from the harms of white supremacy that hurt all of us toward a more bright and beautiful future in which every person can be more whole in their bodies, and in their lives and in their relationships with others. \u00a0And so I think my hope is that in teaching the truth, it\u2019s actually a practice of healing as Shawn Ginwright might name.\u00a0 And that my hope is that it\u2019s a practice of practicing liberation as Dr. Carla Shalaby might talk about.\u00a0 And so how is it that together as educators and young people, we can practice liberation in our classrooms toward that more whole and beautiful vision, which is not about loading people with guilt and shame, but instead is about actually moving away from those things that harm us most towards something that\u2019s really going to be better for everybody.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 My goodness. Thank you for this joyful and hopeful conversation about this amazing book that I think white folks should read, lots and lots and lots of white folks should read and my dog agrees. \u00a0And we only just touched on a little bit of the text. \u00a0There are so many more. \u00a0I\u2019ve got all these like bookmarks in here where I wanted to quote other sections. \u00a0Christie\u2019s got a gazillion post it notes. \u00a0We\u2019re only just getting started. \u00a0And yet this feels like the perfect place to end. \u00a0Christie, Jess, Brendan, thank you so much for joining me to talk about this. \u00a0I so appreciate it. \u00a0And Charlie does, too.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jess:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you for having us. \u00a0This was a soul-filling conversation.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is fantastic. \u00a0Thanks so much to all of you.\u00a0 This is great.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Christie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you, Jeanie.\u00a0 Thank you, Charlie.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019m Jeanie.\u00a0 And this has been an episode of #vtedReads talking about what Vermont\u2019s educators and students are reading. \u00a0Thank you to Brendan Kieley. Did I do that right?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<p><strong>Brendan<\/strong>:\u00a0 Yes, thank you. \u00a0Thank you so much.<\/p>\r\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Jeanie:\u00a0 In this episode, I sit down with educational phenoms Christie Nold and Jess Lifshitz. \u00a0And we\u2019re joined by Brendan Kiely, Author of The Other Talk: Reckoning with Our White Privilege. Now, you might be wondering what The Other Talk actually is.\u00a0 As many of you know, black people and other people of the global &hellip; <\/p>\n<p class=\"link-more\"><a href=\"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/vted-reads-the-other-talk\/\" class=\"more-link\">Continue reading<span class=\"screen-reader-text\"> &#8220;#vted Reads: The Other Talk&#8221;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":54,"featured_media":31017,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1004,6],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-31002","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-vted-reads","category-news"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/31002","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/54"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=31002"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/31002\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":40950,"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/31002\/revisions\/40950"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/31017"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=31002"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=31002"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/tiie.w3.uvm.edu\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=31002"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}