Carla Shalaby<\/a>, who talks about the power of collective resistance. \u00a0It used to feel like enough to go in my classroom and close my door and do my antiracist teaching and feel good about it. \u00a0And it\u2019s no longer working, because one, it\u2019s no longer safe in multiple ways even with all the privilege I as a white educator am wrapped in, it\u2019s no longer safe. And two, it\u2019s not changing the system. \u00a0So, then it starts to feel impossible when we get to that handwringing stage which I don\u2019t like.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnd I come back to that\u2019s why we keep talking to other white educators, because the way to move forward is to do it collectively, right, to join forces and to stand alongside BIPOC educators who have been doing the work and shouldering such a different heavy burden. \u00a0And then as a white educator, what can I do, like Christie said, I can keep talking about it. \u00a0And I somewhere wrote down what Brendan said too, that idea of start having these conversations about white privilege and racism all the time, right, be that annoying hand raiser in a staff meeting, keep bringing it up, keep pointing out the problems, keep suggesting a better way, keep sharing the work that students are capable of, because we have to get other white folks to join us. \u00a0It no longer feels like enough to me to just go in my classroom and close the door. \u00a0I have to bring folks, and when I say folks, I mean white folks into the work with me. \u00a0And then collectively we push on admin, we push on school boards to vocally and visibly support us, because that\u2019s how we move forward, right, that\u2019s how we do the work. So, I don\u2019t remember what question I was answering, but\u2026<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
I just got to \u2013 sorry. I know I said you all should do all the talking. \u00a0But there are a couple things that are like really bubbling for me. \u00a0And one is Brendan brought up this holding of this kid holding like the hero and the can-do bad things. \u00a0And I was thinking in your book, especially in chapter six, you really explored the paradox of race that it scientifically doesn\u2019t exist, but that socially it does and has huge impact, right? \u00a0And so, in a way that kid \u2013 that 17-year-old kid is able to like hold paradox. \u00a0And this book really asked kids to hold paradox. \u00a0So that\u2019s one thing.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
And then I\u2019m thinking just about what you just said and feeling, like, and I am so guilty of this- about the problem with politeness. \u00a0How often as white folks we defer to politeness instead of standing up and saying, hold on, wait a minute?\u00a0 And Brendan, you give a really great example in your book of that inaction.\u00a0 And how much it takes for us as white folks to stand up and say, what you\u2019re doing right now is racist, like, because we\u2019re so worried about politeness that we forget that they\u2019re harming people in our midst. \u00a0And who are we protecting with that politeness?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
And then the third thing, and then I\u2019m going to shut up and let you all say your brilliant words, because they bubble up in such interesting ways. \u00a0And thinking about this book is such that your onramp really to borrow Christie\u2019s words, your onramp is your humility in sharing your own stories from your youth, again, and from your adulthood, frankly, again and again and being willing to say, my God.\u00a0 Like, to put yourself out there in this vulnerable way and notice how race and racism shows up in your own life. \u00a0And I just have such big appreciation for that, and whether it\u2019s about politeness or about the dawning of paradox, or about just your own experience, I just so appreciated that. \u00a0I don\u2019t have a question. \u00a0I\u2019m just going to open the floor and mute myself again.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Christie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019m trying to remember who I first heard the phrase \u2018creative noncompliance\u2019 from, but that is also really coming to mind for me, this idea of the many subversive ways that educators can continue in this moment and within the system. \u00a0And so, it calls to mind. \u00a0I think one of the sections of the book that stood out to me most was that moment, because I think I recognize myself in it the most, was that moment at the white privilege conference.\u00a0 When asked to \u201cStand in solidarity by leaving,\u201d this decision made by a white participant about what this indigenous woman might need or want in that moment. \u00a0And then to have that woman say, like, \u201cNo stay, I want you to stay. \u00a0This is what you meaning white people always do, you get up and leave.\u201d \u00a0And it makes me think about something that \u2013 and again, I\u2019m trying to call to mind, this comes from another person, this idea that if you \u2013 if a person were to walk away from whiteness in one situation, you\u2019re likely to just run into it in the next that there isn\u2019t a walking away from whiteness and yet that is in so many ways what white folks keep doing.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnd so, one of the things that I hear from educators who are now (white educators in particular) being confronted with this idea of bans on critical race theory is like, well, I\u2019ll just leave. \u00a0And I want to invite white educators who are sitting with that, I\u2019ll just leave sentiment to consider what it looks like to stay in the same way that the woman asked you to stay in that moment. \u00a0What does it look like to be in this moment to be subversive to take a risk by teaching what necessarily needs to be taught to our young people?\u00a0 And I want to be really clear here.\u00a0 I\u2019m not asking educators to stay in toxic environments that are actually dangerous to them, and to their health and wellbeing. \u00a0But what I am asking is in particular for white educators who have privileges within this system, as much as possible to stay and make it better if you\u2019re able.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
And again, for folks who are stepping away for reasons of personal health, for reasons of family health, for reasons of wellbeing, for reasons that their school or their environment is too toxic, yes, do those things. \u00a0And also, if the reason a person is stepping away is to say the system is too white, and the person stepping away is also white, again, I just want to invite a pause before fully pulling away and a request to really look around and consider that perhaps it is in that place that you can do the most work. \u00a0And perhaps that place really needs you.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s okay to call each other in or call each other towards our better selves. \u00a0And in fact, a lot of the smart people in our lives who can do that, and we shouldn\u2019t expect people of the global majority our friends who are not white to do that for us.\u00a0 But we can lean on each other as white folks to pull us into that place we want to be when we slide and slip and slide in our own indoctrination in white supremacy, because we both got that, right?\u00a0 So, I just wanted to pull out that phrase, loving accountability.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnd then I am one of those people who early on in the \u2013 what I\u2019m going to call the critical race theory whiplash would say, my goodness, come on, schools aren\u2019t teaching critical race theory. \u00a0I\u2019m learning about critical race theory in my doc program. \u00a0That\u2019s not what schools are teaching. \u00a0Now, I\u2019ve been rethinking that a little bit, because one, I think it\u2019s not very helpful and, two, because it isn\u2019t really accurate. \u00a0And so it may be that schools are not teaching critical race theory. \u00a0But while reading your book, I was really seeing what schools are teaching is what critical race theory helps us see, which is the ways in which racism is systemic or you used on page 66, the word systematized.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
And so, I really appreciated the way you pulled out historical outlines, legal outcomes, your grandfather, I felt a real kinship to that, that\u2019s my own working class grandfather\u2019s story and his benefits from being in World War II. \u00a0And you sort of lay out the way in which just like critical race theory would that the nature of racism in this country isn\u2019t about a few bad apples, a few individuals who feel icky things.\u00a0 It\u2019s really about legal precedent and systems at work to produce the outcomes that are racist.\u00a0 And I guess that\u2019s what antiracist teachers are doing, right? \u00a0They\u2019re teaching accurate history that demonstrates the systemic nature of racism.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
And so, I wanted to talk a little bit more than Christie just did about how teachers might continue to do this really important work while preparing themselves for challenges from \u2013 in Vermont, what\u2019s happening is anti-CRT folks are calling in to school board meetings on Zoom from like states in the West, right, like \u2013 so how can we prepare ourselves for what\u2019s going to happen? \u00a0What we know is going to happen, because when you disrupt inequitable systems, people are going to push back.\u00a0 What might we do so that we\u2019re ready for that? \u00a0And Jess, I\u2019m going to invite you to speak first.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Jess:<\/strong>\u00a0 Me?\u00a0 So, I think I said most of what I have to say about this earlier on that I don\u2019t have a good, easy answer.\u00a0 And I think the truth is, I think sometimes educators do need permission to know that sometimes it is too much and there is a threat.\u00a0 And it is unsafe.\u00a0 And listen to that too, because I think part of why we need to rethink saying, well, schools aren\u2019t teaching CRT is that it\u2019s really dismissive, because it\u2019s so beside the point.\u00a0 Nobody cares really if we\u2019re teaching CRT or not.\u00a0 That was never the point, right?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nSo, I think we were also unprepared for that argument that we were like that was our first response, like, what you\u2019re talking about?\u00a0 That\u2019s \u2013 I don\u2019t even know what that is.\u00a0 I\u2019m not doing that.\u00a0 But again, that doesn\u2019t matter, because it\u2019s again that desire to protect, protect your children, protect their comfort, but also protect the systems you\u2019ve benefited from.\u00a0 And so, I do want to say that I think sometimes it isn\u2019t safe and to know that and trust that too.\u00a0 And then we build that collective resistance.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
And I will also say this: before I dig in with my students to any conversations about racism or racist systems, we first celebrate the heck out of identity, and we celebrate who we all are as individuals and facets of identity, and we talk about the many parts of us.\u00a0 And we celebrate so much, because that means more than hanging a rainbow flag on my wall, right?\u00a0 That doesn\u2019t create a safe space.\u00a0 What creates a safe space is naming identities. Being able to give space to conversations about all pieces of identity, modeling my own identity and talking about it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
And then once we celebrate identity, then we built on that foundation, because we have these sturdy legs to stand on them, right? \u00a0And then we move into how does our identity impact how we move through the world?\u00a0 And I make it so clear that there are some parts of our identity that in some situations make it harder for us to move through the world. \u00a0But that\u2019s not because something is wrong with who you are, it\u2019s because something is wrong with this world, right?\u00a0 So, I\u2019m not saying that protects us. \u00a0But I think it\u2019s sort of contextualizes teaching about systems, because we look at it through a lens of who we are impacts how we move through the world, right?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
And so, again, that\u2019s not some magic solution, but it can help when we start there, it becomes a little bit more just what we do here, right?\u00a0 We just celebrate who we are and we are honest about who we are. It sometimes makes things easier and sometimes makes things harder and we\u2019re going to look at all of that together and there\u2019s space for all of that together here. \u00a0So, it can be kind of a good place to go to when it\u2019s starting to feel like, there is nothing I can say that\u2019s going to not be attacked. \u00a0And certainly, there will be people who attack but it can kind of cushion some of that.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Christie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think, to what both of you are saying, I think one of the great lies that has been perpetuated is this idea that it\u2019s deeply rooted in shame and guilt. \u00a0And although there are places in the statuses that one can point to in which a person might be feeling shame and guilt. \u00a0And also, I want a name that I can\u2019t control how the curriculum I teach in my classroom lands on my students. \u00a0And so, I aim for joy, I aim for opportunities, for lightness, for those breathing moments. \u00a0And also, I know that the same lesson can strike five students in five entirely different ways. \u00a0And I don\u2019t want to pretend to control for that. \u00a0But I do want to offer that I am willing to sit with any student and the authentic reactions that they\u2019re having to what I\u2019m teaching.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnd I want to name that in their really beautiful text Radical Dharma<\/a> which has been foundational to my own understanding. \u00a0I just love the way in which Lama Rod Owens and Angel Kyodo Williams talks about the harms of white supremacy to all people across racial identity and society. \u00a0And they name really beautifully that white supremacy harms all of us. \u00a0It harms people at different rates and in different ways. \u00a0So, I don\u2019t want to pretend that the harms of white supremacy that I\u2019ve experienced in my white body are the same harms of white supremacy that friends of the global majority experience. \u00a0But I do want to name that I think there are opportunities and ways in which when white supremacy is named, and the harm of it is named that white students, young white people, white professionals, academics, educators, all of us can name the way that this has harmed us too, has harmed our relationship, has fractured relationship, both with people of the global majority and with one another, has harmed our familial lineages in the way in which our families have broken from their ancestry in order to meld itself into this project of whiteness that exists here in the United States.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnd I think that there is a real beauty and and joy that can come in naming this universal harm that folks have experienced through this project of white supremacy. \u00a0That is to say that critical race theory and this teaching is about restoring and repairing from that harm and moving toward a place of healing. \u00a0And as they name in their text, a place of true collective liberation in which it\u2019s about all of us in solidarity moving away from the harms of white supremacy that hurt all of us toward a more bright and beautiful future in which every person can be more whole in their bodies, and in their lives and in their relationships with others. \u00a0And so I think my hope is that in teaching the truth, it\u2019s actually a practice of healing as Shawn Ginwright might name.\u00a0 And that my hope is that it\u2019s a practice of practicing liberation as Dr. Carla Shalaby might talk about.\u00a0 And so how is it that together as educators and young people, we can practice liberation in our classrooms toward that more whole and beautiful vision, which is not about loading people with guilt and shame, but instead is about actually moving away from those things that harm us most towards something that\u2019s really going to be better for everybody.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Jeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 My goodness. Thank you for this joyful and hopeful conversation about this amazing book that I think white folks should read, lots and lots and lots of white folks should read and my dog agrees. \u00a0And we only just touched on a little bit of the text. \u00a0There are so many more. \u00a0I\u2019ve got all these like bookmarks in here where I wanted to quote other sections. \u00a0Christie\u2019s got a gazillion post it notes. \u00a0We\u2019re only just getting started. \u00a0And yet this feels like the perfect place to end. \u00a0Christie, Jess, Brendan, thank you so much for joining me to talk about this. \u00a0I so appreciate it. \u00a0And Charlie does, too.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nJess:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you for having us. \u00a0This was a soul-filling conversation.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nBrendan:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is fantastic. \u00a0Thanks so much to all of you.\u00a0 This is great.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nChristie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you, Jeanie.\u00a0 Thank you, Charlie.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nJeanie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019m Jeanie.\u00a0 And this has been an episode of #vtedReads talking about what Vermont\u2019s educators and students are reading. \u00a0Thank you to Brendan Kieley. Did I do that right?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nBrendan<\/strong>:\u00a0 Yes, thank you. \u00a0Thank you so much.<\/p>\r\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"Jeanie:\u00a0 In this episode, I sit down with educational phenoms Christie Nold and Jess Lifshitz. \u00a0And we\u2019re joined by Brendan Kiely, Author of The Other Talk: Reckoning with Our White Privilege. Now, you might be wondering what The Other Talk actually is.\u00a0 As many of you know, black people and other people of the global … <\/p>\n
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